Elite: General talk

Tengri Umai
10 Feb 2021, 8:26am
I think that FCs should be attackable, not destructible but lets say 90% of the value destructible.


I paid 7 billions to fleet carrier and all modules. It's overpriced as hell and you need to pay upkeep every week. It's easier just sell FC and never touch it again then afford such kind of rebuy.

This is a universe where the ganking of NOOBs at FF in Deciat - seems as bad as being enslaved. Because when ganked in your unrated, un-engineered ship is allowed by FDev then Slavery should also be allowed, but easy to make the slavers have a much harder time of getting players enslaved. Galnet news feed. SHIP ID's etc...


True.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Sakashiro
10 Feb 2021, 8:54am
I don't understand this ban. So this is harassment, but seal clubbing is not?

Slavery is literally part of the game's lore, but if it's acted out in the game, it's a big deal and must be stopped? What about all the other non-consensual player interactions? Is piracy still OK?

How was this even non-consensual? How can someone outfit a ship for mining and claim not to know about rebuy screens, the self-destruct button and the clear save option? When I first heard this story, I couldn't believe it was anything but a hoax. Am I missing something here?

I don't like this turn from cutthroat galaxy to safe space at all.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Wulthus
10 Feb 2021, 9:57am
Spud_
Sir Sprockettwell here is the Pilot talking to one of the "slavers"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odTvqMrT4AA



And here they are getting perma banned to SOLO


https://prnt.sc/ywlwrq


Ladies and gentlemen, it's official now. No fun allowed. I was actually hyped up to see how these guys would get punished by the community, but nooooo...

Madi-TenurrOh I'm not denying that Episparh. Frontier is the owner and ruler of Elite Dangerous. They can do whatever they wish with their property; something I've seemed to note numerous times as I've learned more about the game. Still, if the statement about them "listening to players" is true, particularly in this instance, we can definitely make sure that there's at least some sort of feedback for them to look at if they deign to choose so. If not, then what I say is as irrelevant as a brown dwarf with a few icy bodies orbiting it, and no harm done


Madi madi madi... if ED is their property then who the hell owns the copy of it, present on my hard drive, that I have personally paid for?! (That might be the reason they're allowed to play solo, I guess)

SakashiroI don't understand this ban. So this is harassment, but seal clubbing is not?

Slavery is literally part of the game's lore, but if it's acted out in the game, it's a big deal and must be stopped? What about all the other non-consensual player interactions? Is piracy still OK?

How was this even non-consensual? How can someone outfit a ship for mining and claim not to know about rebuy screens, the self-destruct button and the clear save option? When I first heard this story, I couldn't believe it was anything but a hoax. Am I missing something here?

I don't like this turn from cutthroat galaxy to safe space at all.


Absolutely! Just think about the scope of that line in CoC/ToS. Absolutely any, ANY scummy interaction with other player might be a subject for getting banhammer to the face. Even worse when you realise that the "slaves" consented to all of this.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Sakashiro
10 Feb 2021, 10:35am
I just read the Polygon article.

There would have been no way back other than to self-destruct his new starship and effectively begin Elite’s grind all over again.


Brace yourselves, because FDev's response to this misrepresentation of a basic element of the game means that piracy is now violating the terms of service. You can no longer extort cargo by threat of destruction, because your victim might be seven years old and feel forced to "effectively begin Elite's grind all over again".

The whole affair is another exercise in wokeness. Again the rules get changed for everyone because a few snowflakes felt offended. Expect to see trigger warnings in the game soon.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Episparh
10 Feb 2021, 10:42am
if ED is their property then who the hell owns the copy of it, present on my hard drive, that I have personally paid for?!


I think the ToS on that matter are quite outdated for E: D. Nowadays companies just give you the right to play without owning even your save file. This way,  they can easily terminate your access if violation occurs,  the only thing they are obliged to do is to refund all your cash spent on this.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Sir Sprockett
10 Feb 2021, 10:53am
yes i think this is woke. But i also think that Fdev has a responsibility to the younger members of our community. (me being 50 and feel as though I am one )

Saying that I would have loved to have got involved with hunting down the Slavers. Simple solution create working NPC slaves that you can gather at places, and then you outfit them their mining craft (player pays) and the NPC pirates work for the players Purse.

The NPC pirate could have a learning code that makes them after a period of time, learn that they need to escape and get the word out. Then the general player base can act against the Slaver - which is simple PVP....

also as  SLAVER you are forced by FDev play only in OPEN. no PG nor solo. This then makes high risk/reward worth it for the slavers and fun for the community

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Artie
10 Feb 2021, 10:53am
At the one side, the shadow ban (and FC disabling) may look a little bit heavy handed. On the other side, it's fully understandable why Frontier did this, because damages (losing new players, getting bad reputation, a spread of this behavior) may be more serious than the benefits (new emergent gameplay). This way they sent the signal where are the borders and to be fair, the problematic behavior punished fits the respective point in the Code of conduct, so they have the decision backed (and my guess is they consulted it with their lawyers first, too).

SakashiroI just read the Polygon article.

There would have been no way back other than to self-destruct his new starship and effectively begin Elite’s grind all over again.



Brace yourselves, because FDev's response to this misrepresentation of a basic element of the game means that piracy is now violating the terms of service. You can no longer extort cargo by threat of destruction, because your victim might be seven years old and feel forced to "effectively begin Elite's grind all over again".

The whole affair is another exercise in wokeness. Again the rules get changed for everyone because a few snowflakes felt offended. Expect to see trigger warnings in the game soon.

The whole point was about scamming the players (against the Code of conduct), not about threats in the game about destroying some virtual property, which is not exactly a part of the terms written there (when not prolonged, repeated, etc. so it can be considered as harassment).

Last edit: 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Sir Sprockett
10 Feb 2021, 11:01am
i also think that the ability to HIjack other players FCs should they choose certain in game routes (ie Slavery/Piracy and even smuggling.) needs thought but would be fun again High risk / high reward - with maybe a cooldown period after you maybe have  moment of morality and decide that you want to be a good human again!

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
LewAstro
10 Feb 2021, 11:03am
I'm really disappointed that FDev gave them a boot. The very nature of this game demands piracy etc. It's right there in the lore, it seems a weird choice to ban it. It also removes the opportunity for daring rescues and cool stories of escape.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Sakashiro
10 Feb 2021, 11:36am
Sir SprockettBut i also think that Fdev has a responsibility to the younger members of our community.

No, they don't. Elite Dangerous is a T-rated game. Parents who allow their 7 year old son to play it under supervision of their 10 year old daughter bear full responsibility and are in no position to blame the developer. Besides, no material or physical harm was done. Unlike many other games, Elite is neither pay-to-win nor subscription-based. If you think destruction of a virtual spaceship is disturbing to your child, don't let them play the game. It's as simple as that.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:57pm
Synthya Wylder
10 Feb 2021, 11:38am
I'll offer my opinions on the whole topic.

Sir Sprockett, be careful for what you wish, that sword will swing both ways for all fleet carriers & their owners, no?

Wulthus, I haven't read all the fine print re: Frontier & E:D, but typically, what you pay is for the license to access & play the game; you don't actually own it.

If I were a judge (I do look good in black, being a Witch! ) deciding on the whole turn of events, I'd take 2 things into account:

1. How did the activities themselves compare to the letter of the TOS, &

2. What was the intent of those involved in those activities?

While I haven't finished watching that whole video (linked previously; it's >1 hour long) it seems that the Intent portion was there, as from what I did see (~2/3 of it) that Latex Roach perp was squirmy, inconsistent & regularly contradicting himself. His intent was purposely nefarious & exploitive.

No idea if the FDevs ever watched that though, & if they did, whether they took any of that into consideration.

While, IMO, many other permitted in-game activities may seem to violate the TOS from time to time, here we see an excellent example of "selective interpretation & enforcement" & by those who are the ultimate judge, jury & executioner.

While I think the decision on the part of the FDevs was overly harsh, I think the FDev's intent was to send a chilling message...

That nothing is a problem until it becomes a problem.

The wording of most games TOS covers a purposely broad range of activities & definitions to allow the Devs the latitude to act within those definitions to deal with whatever comes up which comes to their attention & has grown to be a problem, & is usually highlighted their attention to it by someone complaining.

While I personally don't view 'seal clubbing' or 'seal clubbers' in high regard, that is part of the game, & the FDevs have provided an alternative to avoid such things, playing Solo or PG.

TL;DR - I think the FDevs punishment was overly harsh.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Sir Sprockett
10 Feb 2021, 11:47am
Synthya WylderI'll offer my opinions on the whole topic.

Sir Sprockett, be careful for what you wish, that sword will swing both ways for all fleet carriers & their owners, no?



you could easily put something like a "HOT" label on an FC that is carrying out nefarious activities. Otherwise FC not able to be hijacked/attacked as per it is now.

Also this is a self determined game with no end point so I believe that once you get to a certain level of wealth then unless you PVP there really is not much else to do with that wealth (BGS not included)  - so to be able to put a massive risk / verses reward in later game options i think would bring the rags to riches and back aspect into a rather otherwise stale "end game"... (hence my patience in progression in the game)

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Sir Sprockett
10 Feb 2021, 12:04pm
Sakashiro
Sir SprockettBut i also think that Fdev has a responsibility to the younger members of our community.


No, they don't. Elite Dangerous is a T-rated game. Parents who allow their 7 year old son to play it under supervision of their 10 year old daughter bear full responsibility and are in no position to blame the developer. Besides, no material or physical harm was done. Unlike many other games, Elite is neither pay-to-win nor subscription-based. If you think destruction of a virtual spaceship is disturbing to your child, don't let them play the game. It's as simple as that.


that is fair enough

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Madi-Tenurr
10 Feb 2021, 12:12pm
Yeah the video was hilarious because of Roach's attitude and inconsistency. The whole thing was completely over the top, and that's a big part of why it was so entertaining. You just couldn't help but laugh at the entire stupidity of the situation, and I think that quality may be why a number of players are sympathetic and hoped to see this be embraced and explored. Had Roach's responses in the interview been more harsh or cold, I have absolutely no doubt that there'd be less supportive statements. Yet I think Roach said it best (to paraphrase): "We're not really as bad as we could be. We just want to bring some chaos and stupid fun to ED... oh, and make a lot of easy money".

There's a lot of different ways this could've been handled, and while I certainly would've taken other options on the table first, let's be totally honest here. How many of us legitimately care enough to walk away from the game over this? Somehow I don't particularly think it'd be enough to make Frontier even notice, let alone reconsider their position. And chances are, they know that. The risks of letting this happen are more substantial than the risks of stopping it. From their point, it makes sense, and I get it.

However, I'll say this. I LIKE that there's some chance for things to go wrong in a game. I LIKE the Dangerous aspect of Elite Dangerous. The entire reason I tried EVE was that I heard it was a place rife with treachery, scams, wars over dumb stuff that you'd never expect would cause a war (Seriously. A war over liking vs disliking anime that resulted in the loss of in game assets worth over ten thousand US dollars in the in-game currency exchange?!). It was thrilling! But, the truth is, I just didn't care for the actual gameplay. ED has combat and exploration much more enjoyable to me... but the atmosphere...? A bit tame. Then again, it's not like I do PVP or anything too crazy, so maybe I just dont know what I'm talking about

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
SuperFixxxeR
10 Feb 2021, 1:03pm
Bans are always divisive. I was not surprised to read through the comments here and find not much has changed.

Elite has a massive learning curve, and there is enough toxicity in Elite as it is. The bigger picture here is that something like this can turn off new players, damage the playerbase at what is probably quite a pivoting moment in Elites journey with the looming Odyessy release. Its basically bad PR.

That being said, I always treat Elite (and any other game for that matter) as a game and encourage others to do so - its something that doesn't work in the ED community that well, because as soon as you start talking about combat logging, players get on their high horses about morals and suchlike; Yet they're happy to go to Davs Hope or any HGE spots and flip the shit out of the menus until they have all the mats they need.

The reporting on this whole scheme is wrong; words like scam, slavery - its just been over-sensationalised; Its a game; At no point where these players 'forced' to do anything, or kept as "slaves" because that is not a function or game mechanic in Elite. They [fuel scoop dependent] could have done the 800ly trip back to civilized space (and made a tidy profit and increased their exploration rank) - and if they couldn't do that, how new are these 'new' players? New enough to self destruct and write off their modest miner build? Probably.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm

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