Elite: General talk

Igneel Prime
26 Nov 2020, 7:07pm
Shalissigh. this is what some of you are defending?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwOzfnzQuQ&feature=emb_logo


haven't seen anyone say that was ok. definitely not. Especially because they deployed assets directly into noob space which should get them banned. I think the discussion started from this stuff but that's not even ganking anymore. that's just a dick move
Rebecca Hail
26 Nov 2020, 7:11pm
Sakashiro
Rebecca HailThe moment you log into open you give consent to all player interactions, hostile or friendly, you might have with a random player.


Spoken like a lawyer. But there's a difference between accepting a risk and giving consent. For example, the moment you eat sushi, you accept the risk of food poisoning, but you don't give consent to being poisoned.

We need to be realistic here. New players log into open not because they're fine with being blown up but because they expect the rewards to outweigh the risks. If they experience seal clubbing the very first moment they leave the newbie zone, they will re-evaluate and likely conclude that the rewards aren't worth it. And chances are they won't give a fuck about someone saying "but wait... you gave consent!"


But that's, imho, not realistic.

I don't think that the vast majority of players start in open. A substantial amount of players start in Solo or PG, I did that too.

Then there'd need to be enough seal clubbers to actually club all the seals, which there aren't since this playstyle is in the vast minority even amongst the more pvp-like part of the community.

Then those that actually run in a ganker and die (which will be pretty much all of them, no illusions here) would need to go: "Oh wow, this game sucks." and just quit instantly. I do not believe that people trying a game would simply give up after getting killed once. If it'd happen ten, fifteen or twenty times in a row then I'd see that outcome, but not for the regular noob who gets killed once.

This entire argument is that we need to protect the subset of a subset of a subset of players, that might as well give up when they get killed the first time by an NPC. It's just in no way proportional to the, in part, absolutely idiotic suggestions some people try to justify with this argument (and no, I don't mean anyone in here but I've been up and down this discussion throughout the years more than a couple of times and have heard pretty much every retarded idea from: "New CMDRs should get killed by ultra hard NPCs at least five times so they get used to it." to "All gankers need to be executed by firing squad in RL.")


I say it again, the entire ganking problematic is blown way out of proportion. It simply is not the big game-killing problematic some people make it out to be. The best argument against that is this very discussion which has raged on and on for years. And throughout all these years people claimed: "Ganking will kill E:D. The game is dead.", which it very much isn't.

Additionally to that the number of noobs I have heard raging about gankers pales in comparison of the number of players with thousands of hours under their belt. Almost like it's not that big of a problem for the noobs ...

Last edit: 26 Nov 2020, 7:46pm
Sakashiro
26 Nov 2020, 8:59pm
Shalissigh. this is what some of you are defending?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwOzfnzQuQ&feature=emb_logo

The next time you see PvP'ers complain about powerplay not being open-exclusive, point them at that video.
Zentzlb
26 Nov 2020, 9:08pm
Shalisjust jumping in here from the nether to drop my worthless 2 cents.

whether a videogame or not, you are still dealing with people on the other end and there are repercussions to every interaction. I really don't give credence to that distinction that video games because they have the word game in it, have no bearing on your personality, ethics or morality. I've been hearing this argument since the 90s. I thought it wasn't sound then and i still think so. Its, imho, just a way to dismiss responsibility and pressure to be morally acceptable for those who already have few morals to begin with. After all these are not just "games", they are a medium through which you interact with other human beings. My first MMO was meridian 59, and i've played pretty much all since (and muds/bbs before that). I think i can comfortably say that i've met most if not all of the player archetypes out there. And i can honestly say that toxic behaviour in game = toxic human irl (whether themselves or their "leader" and cohorts but then what is the difference? if you chose to follow and emulate an asshat or surround yourself with such, then you are one), full stop. I used to think otherwise, after all being bad ass is fun in a childish manner, but all that got me was disappointment and drama as i watched player group after player group turn on itself, and narcissist after narcissist leading people astray.

everything else is just examples of the human mind power to rationalize its behaviour, no matter how nonsensical (i.e.: pooping where you eat, where you literally drive a game you love to its death bed.. i could provide examples if needed, its been a long history of repeat mistakes in the online gaming world when it comes to community management).


"And I can honestly say that toxic behaviour in game = toxic human irl" These all gankers are sociopaths kind of comments really make it difficult to take you seriously.
MarcOmega
26 Nov 2020, 9:09pm
Rebecca Hail

But that's, imho, not realistic.

I don't think that the vast majority of players start in open. A substantial amount of players start in Solo or PG, I did that too.

Then there'd need to be enough seal clubbers to actually club all the seals, which there aren't since this playstyle is in the vast minority even amongst the more pvp-like part of the community.


Rebecca, I agree that the most recent seal clubbing which occurred adjacent to the newbie zone is not, in a major way, problematic. Those are new ships, they likely don't have a lot of stored up time/progress that is lost, so while jarring, it is likely not going to keep most of them out of the game. At worst, it may actually only be harmful to the PvP or Open community as likely most of those commanders switched to Solo at that point and continued on.

I think the activity is more problematic in places like newbie hunting in Deciat. There, a player may have spent time traveling in an un-engineered ship with a meta-alloy in order to unlock Felicity Farseer, only to get blown up as soon as they hit the system. Again, I absolutely get that it is not the end of the world for that player. But assuming they have RL, only have limited time to play, now have to repeat whatever amount of time it took them to get to that spot and I do think some will react negatively.

Another example, traveling out to the first guardian site, with the extreme distance, in an unarmed ship, only to get blown up immediately by someone camping that area. Again, same thing, they have not been actually harmed, lost some credits, but the bigger impact is in the time/progress they lose if they have limited time. Again, ED is a grind, quite lengthy and losing progress can be very disconcerting.

And ultimately, you add in the fact that there is simply NO real justification related to in-game rewards or behavior for that. The meta-alloy, if they only have one is not worth the ammo expended. Compared to the time involved in flying around Deciat looking for targets, trying to instance correctly, etc, no sane person would think that was entertaining game time and worth it for the one meta-alloy. At that point someone knows that they have been set back, lost a lot of time, have to repeat progress, for no other reason than the shameful joy that the other guy got from the kill. It definitely taints, for some people, their perception of interacting with other commanders in ED and, I think, it harms the community of the game. It certainly doesn't kill it but it has a negative impact.

I would equate it to a bigger kid stomping all over a sand castle that another kid was building. It is not permanent harm, it is not criminal in nature, it destroys the time and effort that someone put into something, with no legitimate reward other than, again, the shameful joy that comes from spoiling something for someone else. That's the behavior, that I have yet to see a legitimate defense for other than to say that Frontier allows it so its all good.

I don't care for that behavior. I dislike it and I don't want to associate with anyone that does it. That means, that if people who engage in PvP, regardless of the nature, associate with others that engage in that behavior, then I don't want to associate with them either. And I question their motives in other things due to their association with people who act that way. And I am always going to call out someone that behaves that way for what I perceive that behavior to be.

I am going out of my way to recommend Mobius or Solo to new players, and before FDev ever gets to the point of trying to declare parts of the game Open Only, I am going to be very vocal to remind them that the go to response of anyone defending certain types of pointless negative behavior is a suggestion that others simply play in PG or Solo. As long as that response is supposed to excuse all negative behavior, then the game should continue to support PG/Solo as valid modes of play for everything. Nothing in the game progress should be locked behind Open mode.
Aleksander Majjam
26 Nov 2020, 9:27pm
Igneel Prime
Shalissigh. this is what some of you are defending?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwOzfnzQuQ&feature=emb_logo



haven't seen anyone say that was ok. definitely not. Especially because they deployed assets directly into noob space which should get them banned. I think the discussion started from this stuff but that's not even ganking anymore. that's just a dick move


Seriously.. what do you want to call it?

Igneel Prime
26 Nov 2020, 9:32pm
Aleksander Majjam
Igneel Prime
Shalissigh. this is what some of you are defending?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwOzfnzQuQ&feature=emb_logo




haven't seen anyone say that was ok. definitely not. Especially because they deployed assets directly into noob space which should get them banned. I think the discussion started from this stuff but that's not even ganking anymore. that's just a dick move



Seriously.. what do you want to call it?

[img=864x81]https://i.imgur.com/y6Yu8Cs.png[/img]


The difference is in the circumstances leading to it. If someone goes out there to hunt players attacking even weaker ones if they happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time that's one thing. Actively hunting new players by even going to the starting zone is worse than that.
Aleksander Majjam
26 Nov 2020, 9:33pm
Shalissigh. this is what some of you are defending?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwOzfnzQuQ&feature=emb_logo


I have seen quite a few videos in the last week of gankers recording themselves doing this and specifically looking for new Epic players.

I don't get why some people here fight others when they call out this shit or talks about in-game ways of curbing it, since it's literally there for everyone to see and abhor.
Igneel Prime
26 Nov 2020, 9:36pm
Aleksander Majjam
Shalissigh. this is what some of you are defending?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwOzfnzQuQ&feature=emb_logo



I have seen quite a few videos in the last week of gankers recording themselves doing this and specifically looking for new Epic players.

I don't get why some people here fight others when they call out this shit or talks about in-game ways of curbing it, since it's literally there for everyone to see and abhor.


Because quite often the complaint is simply "gankers bad" or something bashing the possibility of getting attacked at all.
Michael Wolfe
26 Nov 2020, 9:44pm
Like it or not, the game allows for this kind of behavior. It seems like a far more productive use of your time would be to learn evasive skills and outfit properly. If that's something you can't be bothered to do, then select the mode most appropriate for your skill level and risk tolerance.



And I'll say one more thing: it's okay for new players to not know everything. It's okay to experience setbacks in one's early game. These are the experiences that enable people to develop skill and proper expectations.

Open isn't for everyone, and that's okay too.

Last edit: 26 Nov 2020, 9:53pm
Aleksander Majjam
26 Nov 2020, 9:45pm
Igneel Prime
Aleksander Majjam
Shalissigh. this is what some of you are defending?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIwOzfnzQuQ&feature=emb_logo




I have seen quite a few videos in the last week of gankers recording themselves doing this and specifically looking for new Epic players.

I don't get why some people here fight others when they call out this shit or talks about in-game ways of curbing it, since it's literally there for everyone to see and abhor.



Because quite often the complaint is simply "gankers bad" or something bashing the possibility of getting attacked at all.


Haha. I can probably but a wager here that NO ONE here is bashing the possibility of getting attacked. At all. I have been attacked by pirates before. I'm sure people get attacked all the time for PP reasons. Any in-game, lore reason for getting attacked is not a gank.

I call people in those videos gankers. The people that make videos of them trolling others title their video as gankers as well, lol! When this happens to a player continuously, it becomes intentional griefing.

Zentzlb
26 Nov 2020, 9:55pm
MarcOmega
Rebecca Hail

But that's, imho, not realistic.

I don't think that the vast majority of players start in open. A substantial amount of players start in Solo or PG, I did that too.

Then there'd need to be enough seal clubbers to actually club all the seals, which there aren't since this playstyle is in the vast minority even amongst the more pvp-like part of the community.



Rebecca, I agree that the most recent seal clubbing which occurred adjacent to the newbie zone is not, in a major way, problematic. Those are new ships, they likely don't have a lot of stored up time/progress that is lost, so while jarring, it is likely not going to keep most of them out of the game. At worst, it may actually only be harmful to the PvP or Open community as likely most of those commanders switched to Solo at that point and continued on.

I think the activity is more problematic in places like newbie hunting in Deciat. There, a player may have spent time traveling in an un-engineered ship with a meta-alloy in order to unlock Felicity Farseer, only to get blown up as soon as they hit the system. Again, I absolutely get that it is not the end of the world for that player. But assuming they have RL, only have limited time to play, now have to repeat whatever amount of time it took them to get to that spot and I do think some will react negatively.

Another example, traveling out to the first guardian site, with the extreme distance, in an unarmed ship, only to get blown up immediately by someone camping that area. Again, same thing, they have not been actually harmed, lost some credits, but the bigger impact is in the time/progress they lose if they have limited time. Again, ED is a grind, quite lengthy and losing progress can be very disconcerting.

And ultimately, you add in the fact that there is simply NO real justification related to in-game rewards or behavior for that. The meta-alloy, if they only have one is not worth the ammo expended. Compared to the time involved in flying around Deciat looking for targets, trying to instance correctly, etc, no sane person would think that was entertaining game time and worth it for the one meta-alloy. At that point someone knows that they have been set back, lost a lot of time, have to repeat progress, for no other reason than the shameful joy that the other guy got from the kill. It definitely taints, for some people, their perception of interacting with other commanders in ED and, I think, it harms the community of the game. It certainly doesn't kill it but it has a negative impact.

I would equate it to a bigger kid stomping all over a sand castle that another kid was building. It is not permanent harm, it is not criminal in nature, it destroys the time and effort that someone put into something, with no legitimate reward other than, again, the shameful joy that comes from spoiling something for someone else. That's the behavior, that I have yet to see a legitimate defense for other than to say that Frontier allows it so its all good.

I don't care for that behavior. I dislike it and I don't want to associate with anyone that does it. That means, that if people who engage in PvP, regardless of the nature, associate with others that engage in that behavior, then I don't want to associate with them either. And I question their motives in other things due to their association with people who act that way. And I am always going to call out someone that behaves that way for what I perceive that behavior to be.

I am going out of my way to recommend Mobius or Solo to new players, and before FDev ever gets to the point of trying to declare parts of the game Open Only, I am going to be very vocal to remind them that the go to response of anyone defending certain types of pointless negative behavior is a suggestion that others simply play in PG or Solo. As long as that response is supposed to excuse all negative behavior, then the game should continue to support PG/Solo as valid modes of play for everything. Nothing in the game progress should be locked behind Open mode.


Had a noob friend that had been playing the game for less than a week that got ganked while he was trying to land at farseer yesterday. He was not deterred from playing in the slightest. The ship insurance policy in this game is incredibly forgiving, most other games you would just lose the ship. Repeated ganking can be toxic but dying one or two times is only a roadblock if you have a bad attitude.
Sakashiro
26 Nov 2020, 10:01pm
It's kind of sad to see that the first thing we do to newcomers is to push them into solo.

But I agree with Marc, it's better to do this early, while they are still in their zero-rebuy Sidewinders. Not much harm done at that early stage.
Aleksander Majjam
26 Nov 2020, 10:04pm
M. LehmanLike it or not, the game allows for this kind of behavior. It seems like a far more productive use of your time would be to learn evasive skills and outfit properly. If that's something you can't be bothered to do, then select the mode most appropriate for your skill level and risk tolerance.



And I'll say one more thing: it's okay for new players to not know everything. It's okay to experience setbacks in one's early game. These are the experiences that enable people to develop skill and proper expectations.

Open isn't for everyone, and that's okay too.


LMAO. Holy shit. I swear I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

Players in fully engineered ships blowing up new Sidewinders to bits for fun and you want these new players to make better use of their time? How can they possibly do this when they're griefed? The idea that some of you think gankers are "teachers" is absolutely laughable.

No one, and I mean no one, should have their first MMO experience in Elite dictated and ruined by gankers. These aren't setbacks. Forgetting my limpets when I get to my mining location is a setback. Getting killed in PP is a setback. Losing some of my cargo to pirates is a setback.

Sorry, I just don't understand the normalizing of ganking. I really don't. But hey, when there are people condoning this I can understand why people go into solo and just stay there and/or never stick around long enough. This probably even wouldn't be a discussion but we have players that come on these forums and antagonize others for playing in solo as well, so there's that.
Michael Wolfe
26 Nov 2020, 10:10pm
Aleksander Majjam
M. LehmanLike it or not, the game allows for this kind of behavior. It seems like a far more productive use of your time would be to learn evasive skills and outfit properly. If that's something you can't be bothered to do, then select the mode most appropriate for your skill level and risk tolerance.



And I'll say one more thing: it's okay for new players to not know everything. It's okay to experience setbacks in one's early game. These are the experiences that enable people to develop skill and proper expectations.

Open isn't for everyone, and that's okay too.



LMAO. Holy shit. I swear I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here.

Players in fully engineered ships blowing up new Sidewinders to bits for fun and you want these new players to make better use of their time? How can they possibly do this when they're griefed? The idea that some of you think gankers are "teachers" is absolutely laughable.

No one, and I mean no one, should have their first MMO experience in Elite dictated and ruined by gankers. These aren't setbacks. Forgetting my limpets when I get to my mining location is a setback. Getting killed in PP is a setback. Losing some of my cargo to pirates is a setback.

Sorry, I just don't understand the normalizing of ganking. I really don't. But hey, when there are people condoning this I can understand why people go into solo and just stay there and/or never stick around long enough. This probably even wouldn't be a discussion but we have players that come on these forums and antagonize others for playing in solo as well, so there's that.


Of we two, who has the more productive approach to helping a new player successfully navigate open? The one urging that players learn from setbacks so that they see the importance of developing proper evasive skills and outfitting, or the one who is stamping his foot because sometimes players get attacked in a game that explicitly allows, encourages, and sets the expectation to get attacked?

Last edit: 26 Nov 2020, 10:23pm

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