Elite: General talk

Nathan Atterlein
27 Nov 2020, 7:43am
Sakashiro
M. LehmanAs harsh as it might sound, it is 100% fair for a player in an engineered Fer de Lance to dominate in combat against a new player in a Sidewinder. It is 100% fair for a seasoned explorer to be more skilled at using a neutron star to supercharge their frameshift drive than a player who has never seen one. It is 100% fair for a player group with a hundred dedicated players to win a BGS war against a smaller group of fifty.


That is absolutely reasonable.

The problem with baby seal ganking though is the absence of motivation in the context of the game world. As a writer, you know that quality stories require characters driven by motivation. Even the villains need some reason to do what they're doing. So what is the motivation of a ganker to club baby seals? There certainly is one, but it exists outside the game world only. There's no narrative, no roleplay, no purpose in it other than to fill someone's Twitch stream and generate clicks. You can literally see these people as three-year olds in a sandbox, destroying things their peers have built, "for the lulz".


Ingame murderers (as few and far between they truly are in open) can have plenty of lore reasons to act the way they do. Assuming their motives won't really take the conversation in any productive direction.

People should just accept open the way it is. It's a clusterf*ck. Humankind is a clusterf*ck as well. The risk of running into an armed murderer will always be with you in this mode. I'd say "we all got this learning experience at least once in our open time", but I'd be a false statement. I coached the fifth friend of mine in elite, asking them to try keeping it open only. All of them got through basic engineering without meeting a ganker once. And I didn't even had to share the horror stories of deciat with them.

And it's not like death is a heavily punished outcome in this game...
ArtifactHunter_
27 Nov 2020, 8:05am
Amata LireinHave you guys seen these on Elite's Twitter today?

[img=360x203]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnwJGJYXUAERwK_?format=jpg&name=large[/img]

[img=360x202]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnwJGTgWMAINv9L?format=jpg&name=large[/img]

IMO they look great.


I'm actually trying to make something similar to this; does anybody have tips for digitally drawing glass?



Post edited/moved by: Artie, 27 Nov 2020, 3:08pm
Claude_Glystra
27 Nov 2020, 8:38am
Couple of pics:





Post edited/moved by: Artie, 27 Nov 2020, 3:09pm
Viscera
27 Nov 2020, 9:02am
Nathan AtterleinAnd it's not like death is a heavily punished outcome in this game...


This is the rub.

There are some instances when death is punished by what they lose,

1: Explorers with large quantities of exploration data. This one is a huge mental blow, where the loss is not financial, but time spent. Often this involves months of playtime, and is not going to be compensated in any way.

2: New players who have little in the way of credits. Its possible to lose everything you have worked for, and become totally disillusioned with the game, very easily.

Now, in an ideal world, these players should not be messing in open if they are not prepared to accept that loss to a player, but there are always those who want to throw sense out of the window.
Renraiku
27 Nov 2020, 9:25am
Other people not having the sense to use the tools the game gives them to avoid the easily avoidable is not anyone else's problem but their own.

New players, need to stick to their zone and come to terms with open before venturing out in earnest, however the forums and Inara and many other places have the information they require if they seek it.

The game now has a mini Tutorial and a guide to teach the new players about the game.

Most of us had none of this and survived just fine on our own, fumbling our way through trying to figure out what the hell was going on.

They are much better off than we were, i wouldn't have had it any other way though it taught me plenty.
Effie Trinket
27 Nov 2020, 9:36am
ArtieSo, I have moved the recent discussion about ganking to this thread to de-clutter the discussion about the game itself. A few posts that were direct or indirect insults were simply removed as such posts have no place here. But I think the whole discussions about the ganking seems to go to its end, anyway. Let's just not please discuss the game should be dangerous, because it's named Elite:Dangerous, it always ends in a pointless discussion. Rainbow Six also doesn't need to have six rainbows in there and so on...

I expect any future discussions related to Elite:Dangerous but not exactly to the game itself will go here. If you are not sure where to place it, use your best judgment and I will move it to the proper thread or add further clarification when needed.


O7 Artie.

I only try to counter the overstated misinformation that I see every time I come back to Elite. The statements made as fact, that claim Open is full of gankers and enjoyable gameplay as a result, is impossible

It seems that people who believe that is undeniably true, do not like to hear that others don’t feel the same way and I think it’s important that new members of the community are not misled into avoiding Open completely, the moment they visit forums and hangouts to engage with the membership.

No intention to undermine or ridicule other Cmdrs.

O7 All

Last edit: 27 Nov 2020, 9:58am
Sakashiro
27 Nov 2020, 10:42am
To reiterate a point I was making earlier (which Lehman sadly missed while shamelessly plugging his novels), one of the reasons why open mode in ED feels somewhat empty is that Mobius has been quite successful in scooping up a large number of players who've had it with the sociopaths and prefer to play the game they want instead of the one Lehman suggests they should put up with.

And frankly, after spending a few weeks at ganker hotspots like Deciat, I can't help but notice that the number of players hogging those systems and waiting for prey is actually rather small. And every time they blow up some noob who happens to show up unprepared, the excuse they post in system chat is the same: if you don't like it, play solo!

So what we have here is a small minority of sociopaths, probably no more than two or three dozen, camping at key locations in the game and pushing people into solo at every opportunity. And we are supposed to accept that, because it's the game THEY want, not the one we want.

How about "no"?
Igneel Prime
27 Nov 2020, 11:01am
SakashiroTo reiterate a point I was making earlier (which Lehman sadly missed while shamelessly plugging his novels), one of the reasons why open mode in ED feels somewhat empty is that Mobius has been quite successful in scooping up a large number of players who've had it with the sociopaths and prefer to play the game they want instead of the one Lehman suggests they should put up with.

And frankly, after spending a few weeks at ganker hotspots like Deciat, I can't help but notice that the number of players hogging those systems and waiting for prey is actually rather small. And every time they blow up some noob who happens to show up unprepared, the excuse they post in system chat is the same: if you don't like it, play solo!

So what we have here is a small minority of sociopaths, probably no more than two or three dozen, camping at key locations in the game and pushing people into solo at every opportunity. And we are supposed to accept that, because it's the game THEY want, not the one we want.

How about "no"?


hey I'm happy to push those kinda players out of the game instead. but I'm no one man army and certainly won't fight by myself for people who are unwilling to contribute
Sakashiro
27 Nov 2020, 11:33am
Igneel Primehey I'm happy to push those kinda players out of the game instead. but I'm no one man army and certainly won't fight by myself for people who are unwilling to contribute

And even if you did, it wouldn't work because they would just block you and prevent you from sharing an instance with them.

What might work is a publicly shared list of gankers who are known to engage in baby seal clubbing.
Igneel Prime
27 Nov 2020, 11:37am
Sakashiro
Igneel Primehey I'm happy to push those kinda players out of the game instead. but I'm no one man army and certainly won't fight by myself for people who are unwilling to contribute


And even if you did, it wouldn't work because they would just block you and prevent you from sharing an instance with them.

What might work is a publicly shared list of gankers who are known to engage in baby seal clubbing.


but then we still run into the issue of bringing the info to those new players who quite often have no idea such things exist. And if FDev themselves advertised that stuff they might as well remove the block function or make other improvements. Unless you want to be a living billboard around the starter area but then again instancing
Sakashiro
27 Nov 2020, 11:54am
Igneel Primebut then we still run into the issue of bringing the info to those new players who quite often have no idea such things exist.

The guides section of ED's community hub on Steam might be a good starting point.
MarcOmega
27 Nov 2020, 12:14pm
Igneel Prime


hey I'm happy to push those kinda players out of the game instead. but I'm no one man army and certainly won't fight by myself for people who are unwilling to contribute


To be fair, it is impossible to push those players out of the game. I would be happier to just see the very outspoken members of the PvP community heap scorn on that behavior and shun those that engage in it. At the very least, stop making extraordinary efforts to defend it. Call them out for what they are, a very small minority of dick players. After all, PvP players are the ones with the most to lose. Although, it also seems like a large part of that community is made up of players that are arrogant enough in their progress to instead visit that scorn on the up and coming who need to "git gud" and tough it out. Eve is MORE toxic, things were tougher when I started the game, etc. Again, maybe all fair points but it benefits everyone to increase the player base. For those of us that play in Mobius and I do, doesn't matter much to me if those players are in solo, PG, but it definitely matters to PvP players if they end up there.

Maybe those players are just trying to be self-selective. They want to chase out the players who don't have the focus and time to grind through the obstacles. Again, if you are aiming for a very small subset of players, the very elite and want to weed through all the others, that is one way to do it. If you are trying to actually grow the PvP community and want to encourage multiple levels of players, from hard core through to more casual, each obstacle just works against that goal.

Let me be the first to point out that all of the behavior issues, ultimately, are PvP problems. CLogging, doesn't effect Solo, Mobius players. Ganking, also, doesn't affect that player base. Once you are in Mobius, those things are no longer a problem. And Mobius is sparse as is the rest of ED, but it is not empty. I have encountered players at the Guardian sites, around engineer bases, at Jameson's Cobra and Dav's Hope. I have helped players to get rare items to unlock engineers, including lavian brandy, Modular terminals, meta-alloys. I worked one of the Guardian ruins with a player that showed up without point defense on their Asp, letting my DBX point defense handle missiles while I helped them work the site. I advised a new player how to farm Jameson's Cobra when they were unfamiliar with the process. I have had more than a few positive encounters, the whole reason I joined Mobius with both my account and my Alt account. I have also played in Open at times when it was warranted, and almost always in a ship designed for surviving PvP encounters. So, Mobius, at least in my experience, seems to have just as many chances of encounters as Open, and I don't have to specialize my ship for PvP and plan for murder attempts.

I have never been ganked, I have never encountered a RP Pirate. I have never been in a position to have either of those things happen, and I am not sure it is worth the hassle for me to do it. Again, just hassle, having to rebuy my ship plus the cargo that I carried for a mission requirement. Paying the fine for cargo destroyed on a delivery mission and failing the mission. I have plenty of credits, but it wouldn't be fun for me to have to do that for the small chance of entertainment value from RP balanced against the irritation that I would feel if they turned out to be a murder hobo. Would it be the end of the world, no. Would there be major salt, no. I wouldn't quit the game, but I would switch back to Mobius and chalk it up to one less reason to play in Open. It is ultimately a question of balance, where am I more likely to get entertained the way that I want.

I don't think it is an epidemic, but I do think it is senseless and I do think it generates outrage from some players, especially those with limited time, for which ED is an investment. It only takes one Distant Ganks event to generate a huge amount of notoriety and all of the calls about "Open is not that bad" will have a hard time overcoming those very public events. Is losing all of the exploration data gathered heading towards Sag A a huge tragedy? No, but if I had a choice about playing in Open to provide entertainment for PvP players or switching to Mobius and being assured that I only have in-game threats to worry about as far as my data goes, the choice for me is pretty easy. ED is not a casual game and you have to put time and work into it in order to get the big returns and for people with limited time, there are other options. So, I do think that it is not difficult to push people into Mobius and maybe that is where they should be until they reach end-game but I am just pointing out that it is a very small number of players that deprive the larger group of the potential to interact in more positive PvP encounters.

Again, when the PvP community is asking the general ED community to support their efforts to ask Frontier to do something about Clogging, and there is no general up swell of support in that direction, does it take a genius to figure out maybe why? Honestly, you really don't want to admit to any image problems? Are the ambassadors that represent PvP, in general, doing a good job at this point? And I know it is a diverse crowd and I know that no one can control all of them, but if you celebrate patently negative behavior, if you mine the salt and engage in the lulz, well, you are an ambassador of your play style and players will take what message they will from that.

I tend to think that I am an ambassador for my play style and I hope that I have made positive contributions and grown the player base to support a game that I really enjoy and want to continue to enjoy. And I am willing to admit that maybe, the PvP members actually think that all of their activities, including things like Distant Ganks, Newb hunts in Deciat and suicidewinder runs at Jameson Memorial, are all positive contributions toward building the PvP community by weeding out the players that aren't good candidates. if you think that, then, well played.
Effie Trinket
27 Nov 2020, 12:17pm
Sakashiro
Igneel Primehey I'm happy to push those kinda players out of the game instead. but I'm no one man army and certainly won't fight by myself for people who are unwilling to contribute


And even if you did, it wouldn't work because they would just block you and prevent you from sharing an instance with them.

What might work is a publicly shared list of gankers who are known to engage in baby seal clubbing.


We need an Anti-Gank Squad.
Sakashiro
27 Nov 2020, 12:41pm
ArtifactHunter_I'm actually trying to make something similar to this; does anybody have tips for digitally drawing glass?

[img=412x232]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EnwJGJYXUAERwK_?format=jpg&name=large[/img]

If you want to go for realism, the best method is to make a 3D model and have the computer render it for you.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 27 Nov 2020, 3:07pm

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