Offtopic

Wulthus
21 Feb 2021, 11:43am
Igneel PrimeF I actually earned that much I'd be more than willing to give up some of it so it may be used where it's more needed. Be that other people or the infrastructure.


Living conditions of people in South Sudan had not been improving in years. We're talking no access to fresh water in like 90% of the country, forget the education and transport. It's capital is being surrounded bye people living in shaks. To build it's infrastructure, that part of the world needs a flow of raw capital, and in cases like this, it has been prooven to be an effective way to kickstart country's economy, and increase living standards of it's citizens. How much of your wealth did you donate to help ths people, and why?

Igneel PrimeAnd because I already hear it coming "BuT tHoSe PeOpLe EaRnEd ThAt MoNeY". No. Other people should have earned more and didn't.



Who decides who deserves what, and on what basis?

Igneel PrimeThe system needs to be reworked because it's broken and that starts at redistributing wealth as necessary.



Why wealth redistribution is the primary fix to the problems with the current socio-economic system?
Igneel Prime
21 Feb 2021, 12:14pm
1. I find it funny how people seem to assume I have the funds and should set an example.

2. Here's one to think about. Do you think it's right for someone who works in a higher position to be warning disproportionately more than the people underneath him? Like 6k for a manager position while the guy under him doing the actual work is getting 2.5k?

3. For this and to elaborate my first point I'd like to run some numbers. 3k€ a month (42k a year) is pretty damn good in Austria. Not over the top but I'll refer to my other long post on that. Now I have to take some numbers from a couple years ago because I don't have the up to date ones but they'll do the job of explaining. A couple years ago the average income of an Austrian worker was a bit over 3k€. Wonderful isn't it?pretty wealthy country right? That's one of many statistical values tho and says nothing about how the people are doing. What we really want to look at is the income of the average Austrian. There's a difference. That is that the average income is evaluated by adding up all the values and dividing them by the amount or values. The income of the average person is calculated by taking all the incomes, sorting them by size and taking the middle one. This is where the shock comes in because at the same time as that 3k average that number was 1.7k. That's barely enough to get by and it means that half of the working class earn LESS than that. It is also what I have to live with. It's what my grandmother gets and has to put me through school with. And I still had to work whenever possible to make sure we stay afloat. Now to actually get to the answer of that last question. If you got 10 million at the age of 20 and lived another 70 years that would end up getting you about 140k a year for the rest of your life. That's excessive. It can be done much more short term and with lower amounts of money. Why does that matter? Some people don't own 10 million. Jeff Bezos privately owns 150 billion. Money that the dude won't ever need in his life. Meanwhile other people live in the conditions you described and I live in one of the richest countries in the world and have to worry about my career because of money. Let that sink in
Iwao Kishiro
21 Feb 2021, 12:17pm
To be honest, the biggest issue is balance between what seems to be right and what doesn't seem to be right but absolutely nobody can figure any form of agreement. After all, it's all about the point of view in the end as that will never be representative between different countries, social states and even region of the country you were born in.

In the ideal world, like Zachary Hudson says everyone who works shall get payment and it would be only the fault of the people who do not try enough. While I do not deny there are such wonderful cases, it doesn't always work that way. Such a point of view is not applicable to everyone, let alone it does not take into account a lot of external variables you have absolutely no control over. Such variables are workplace cliques or groups of wealthy people who set up the rules in regard to employment that no government can - or want - to even legally tackle on; that is only the tip of the iceberg.

I watched a very interesting documentary about "what if Earth became one superstate" and the final conclusion was that even if it happened, it wouldn't solve a lot of inequality issues, but to transform or even create a new ones. It hit me, when there was a hypothetical example from the society of the "former United States" protesting about using their taxes to build schools in "former Zimbabwe", because they don't want their money to be redirected to "some poor people on the other side of Earth".

Edit:
Like someone already stated in here, the U.S. American point of view may and will not work in Europe, especially it's Central-Eastern and Eastern part. Why? Because the USA has never suffered any turbulence caused by external force, occupations, failed uprisings and constant oppression for being certain nationality or even belonging to certain religion. Sure, it had different issues during these periods but aside of American Civil War or friendly visit of Canada in 1812 the American soil has been in relative peace trying to finds best solutions for the society with war being fought overseas - while Europe is not even 100 years after the last major conflict, let alone just less than 30 years from the last conflict that was something bigger than a border skirmish by some political incident... if we discount eastern Ukraine which is merely in ceasefire, that is.

But then again, a lot of these questions that "oh my God why X country cannot just copy our system?" made by a lot of Americans come from the fact they don't have grandparents who would live through occupation of the United States - meanwhile in some parts of Europe fear of being occupied still lives on, especially now current world-wide situation is and how it can be used in ways none of us could even imagine. In my opinion, the Cold War has never ended - only switched the major players and evolved its form.

Last edit: 21 Feb 2021, 12:38pm
Wulthus
21 Feb 2021, 12:44pm
Thank you!

1. Well, buddy, you seem to be complaining about your broadband speed, while there are other people in the world, also your age, wondering what can they do not to starve to death, so yeah I do believe you have the capacity to give something away to someone who lives in worse conditions than you.

2. Yes, absolutely. As a manager, you take a higher responsibility on yourself for your work, and the work of others. But it does not matter what I think. Why? I believe it's the matter between the manager, and the company itself. It's their business, their decision, their problem, their deal.

But, you didn't really answer my question. So ... who decides who deserves what, and based on what principles?

3. The word you're looking for is median income. Also, we're talking salary but yoy didn't clarify, were the numbers given for the net salary or the gross one? In the philipines, 1.7k Euros a month will grant you life like a king you you would just move a little beat east. So, why 1.7k euros is not enough to live a decent life in your country?  Also, what kind of schooling systems you have in Austria? Private? Public?

What do you think made your country one of the richest in the world? How is it possible if, accoring to your data, majority of it's population barerly scrapes by?

But. then again, question unasnwwered. I'll try rephrasing it though. Why is it good to take money from Jeff Bezos and pay for your living expenses?
Rebecca Hail
21 Feb 2021, 12:54pm
Why is it good to take money from Jeff Bezos and pay for your living expenses?


Upgrading infrastructure isn't a living expense.

As for why rich people should be taxed more than poor people? Because the state can afford to tax rich people more without impacting their standard of living significantly.
Igneel Prime
21 Feb 2021, 1:01pm
1. "You're not starving yet so you count as wealthy enough to give something away" No. Taking from the middle class and giving to the poor is not how wealth redistribution works

2. Yes a manager should earn more but not disproportionately. Someone who actually works 40 hours a week should not be given just a living wage while someone gets far more than average purely based off of their position regardless of effort.

So to answer your question. The real question is not who but what. Does that person actually put that effort in or do they simply get paid based off of the position.

3. Saying that the money you get in country A would be enough in country B is a rather weak argument. The value of money and other things are not constant. There are different standards and different tax systems and living costs in place. In other words of course living in shacks is cheaper than in a proper house and makes less money enough.

And we're talking about PUBLIC school.

How I know my country is one of the richest in the world? The GNP is mostly taken as metric for this and I think we're in the top 20 somewhere iirc. Also. The 3k average income is prove that the money exists somewhere in the country. There's a difference between a country being rich and the people being rich.

To the last question. What exactly is bad about taking money from Jeff Bezos vs letting him have so much money which he will never need while others are starving? Idk what's so hard to understand about that but that's a no brainer imo. It's called giving a damn about other people
Wulthus
21 Feb 2021, 1:21pm
To the last question. What exactly is bad about taking money from Jeff Bezos vs letting him have so much money which he will never need while others are starving? Idk what's so hard to understand about that but that's a no brainer imo. It's called giving a damn about other people


What's so bad about me taking your PC, selling it and using that money to build a well in South Sudan? Would you protest that?

So to answer your question. The real question is not who but what. Does that person actually put that effort in or do they simply get paid based off of the position.


Then again who or what should decide the top down criteria of "putting effort" that will determine someone's salary? What is the ideal proportion of salaries, and what principles lead to it's creation?

3. Saying that the money you get in country A would be enough in country B is a rather weak argument. The value of money and other things are not constant. There are different standards and different tax systems and living costs in place. In other words of course living in shacks is cheaper than in a proper house and makes less money enough.


I can assure you that people in eastern block don't live in shacks, and pay less for the same services/products. (mostly, ofc) What makes living costs so high in your country? Again... 3k net of taxes? What's the median gross one?
Meicyn
21 Feb 2021, 1:27pm
All I know is, dude dropped $150ish million on a mansion the other day.  Just because.  For context, that’s the equivalent of me buying a $60 videogame.  That’s the kind of purchasing capital Bezos commands.  He could buy a nine figure mansion in all fifty states and still have around half his fortune left.

I’m not about to go Karl Marx in here, but maybe the tax rates could be tweaked just a little bit.

Edit: I mathed wrong. He could buy all those mansions and would still have more than 90% of his capital. Which further emphasizes the point, I think.

Last edit: 21 Feb 2021, 1:57pm
Igneel Prime
21 Feb 2021, 1:28pm
To clarify. All the numbers mentioned are before taxes.

And to you taking my PC I can only reply with what Rebecca said. That's impacting my life. More because I also need it to work and for school rather than playing video games. Jeff Bezos won't have issues getting by if you take even 90% of his wealth. PROPORTIONALITY once again. Plus you show me how you build a proper well with the couple hundred that my PC is worth. Good luck
Wulthus
21 Feb 2021, 1:34pm
MeicynAll I know is, dude dropped $150ish million on a mansion the other day. Just because. For context, that’s the equivalent of me buying a $60 videogame. That’s the kind of purchasing capital Bezos commands. He could buy a nine figure mansion in all fifty states and still have around half his fortune left.

I’m not about to go Karl Marx in here, but maybe the tax rates could be tweaked just a little bit.


Honestly, I'd tweak them the other way around. Make it lower for the low and middle classes too. So far, guys on the assemlbly line leave up to 40% of their income to the government in various taxes. (Not only income ones, VAT too, for example). Corruption is the other story ofc.
Wulthus
21 Feb 2021, 1:35pm
Igneel PrimeTo clarify. All the numbers mentioned are before taxes.

And to you taking my PC I can only reply with what Rebecca said. That's impacting my life. More because I also need it to work and for school rather than playing video games. Jeff Bezos won't have issues getting by if you take even 90% of his wealth. PROPORTIONALITY once again. Plus you show me how you build a proper well with the couple hundred that my PC is worth. Good luck


So, how much would you earn if the taxation was lifted?
Rebecca Hail
21 Feb 2021, 1:39pm
Wulthus
Igneel PrimeTo clarify. All the numbers mentioned are before taxes.

And to you taking my PC I can only reply with what Rebecca said. That's impacting my life. More because I also need it to work and for school rather than playing video games. Jeff Bezos won't have issues getting by if you take even 90% of his wealth. PROPORTIONALITY once again. Plus you show me how you build a proper well with the couple hundred that my PC is worth. Good luck



So, how much would you earn if the taxation was lifted?


You're missing the point.
Igneel Prime
21 Feb 2021, 1:39pm
Without taxes I would actually have those 1.7k. Same for the guy in the middle of the line and everyone with less than that
Igneel Prime
21 Feb 2021, 1:41pm
Rebecca Hail
Wulthus
Igneel PrimeTo clarify. All the numbers mentioned are before taxes.

And to you taking my PC I can only reply with what Rebecca said. That's impacting my life. More because I also need it to work and for school rather than playing video games. Jeff Bezos won't have issues getting by if you take even 90% of his wealth. PROPORTIONALITY once again. Plus you show me how you build a proper well with the couple hundred that my PC is worth. Good luck




So, how much would you earn if the taxation was lifted?



You're missing the point.


Yeah I'm starting to give up on this
Wulthus
21 Feb 2021, 1:44pm
Igneel Prime
Rebecca Hail
Wulthus



So, how much would you earn if the taxation was lifted?




You're missing the point.



Yeah I'm starting to give up on this
Igneel Prime
Rebecca Hail
Wulthus



So, how much would you earn if the taxation was lifted?




You're missing the point.



Yeah I'm starting to give up on this




BEFORE, not after, my bad sorry.

Post a reply

You must be signed in to post here.
Anything not directly and indirectly related to Elite:Dangerous, Starfield, Inara, galaxy and so on. Just please no politics, religion and similar usually heated discussions, please. It never ends well despite the best efforts...