Offtopic

Sakashiro
20 Nov 2021, 11:00am
Burstar
20 Nov 2021, 11:35am
Sakashiro
BurstarCitation needed, because this sounds like something you hear on Facebook.


Here's a fairly recent example, fact check included


LMAO did you even read this link? I don't speak German, but the first paragraph of the translation says this:
The fact that the majority of patients are vaccinated is a statistical effect
At the beginning of November, all Covid-19 intensive care patients were vaccinated in a hospital in Antwerp, Belgium. A video with this statement by a chief doctor is distributed on social networks and suggests that the vaccinations are not working. Without context, however, the video is misleading - the patients belonged to risk groups, the vaccination rate in Belgium is very high.


Again, leave the science to the scientists who understand the research and what it is actually saying. Looking for a headline or title that fits your agenda is no way to understand the nuances of the issue.

SakashiroI'll get to the other points later, I'm busy atm

Don't bother Saka, I think it's clear to anyone reading this that your opinion is misguided and ill-informed. Anyone that is going to listen to you already fell down that rabbit hole.

I will say that I understand your unwillingness to accept what Science is saying. Scientists say that Nuclear Fission is statistically safer and better for the environment than almost all other methods of energy generation. Growing up with the Chernobyl disaster means that to this day I still don't care about the numbers. As far as I'm concerned I know 2 things: nuclear is safe until it suddenly isn't, and humans aren't perfect. Combine these to and you get a staunch anti-fission power activist no matter how many papers get published on this issue. That said, my pigheaded opinion doesn't directly lead to myself or others dying.

Last edit: 20 Nov 2021, 11:55am
SnapStr
20 Nov 2021, 1:37pm
Burstar

Don't bother Saka, I think it's clear to anyone reading this that your opinion is misguided and ill-informed.


That's where you're wrong. Unlike your opponent, you sound like a fanatic, for only they do not doubt the words of authority figures. But even the most authoritative personalities are sometimes wrong. Einstein once said that the splitting of the atom is impossible, but we have an atomic industry.
No scientist takes the work of another on faith, he is sure to double-check his conclusions, that's how science works.
I am closer to the position of a person who has doubts than one who is convinced of the rightness based on authority.
Descartes
20 Nov 2021, 2:34pm
SnapStr]

But even the most authoritative personalities are sometimes wrong. Einstein once said that the splitting of the atom is impossible, .

]
I think you are mistaken there Snapstr. At most he was sceptical. That's one of the problems with internet discussion. It's easy to voice opinions and beliefs as 'facts'.

There are no winners here. People are dying after being diagnosed with having Covid 19, and more will die - vaccinated or not.

The only choice we have to make is 'how much risk am I prepared to take for myself and those around me?'
SnapStr
20 Nov 2021, 4:55pm
Descartes
I think you are mistaken there Snapstr. At most he was sceptical.

"In 1934 Einstein was quoted saying there wasn’t the slightest indication that nuclear power would ever be harnessed because it would necessitate the ability to split the atom at will. However, that same year Enrico Fermi successfully split the uranium atom by bombarding it with neutrons. Scientists in the field came to understand by 1939 that it was theoretically possible to create a chain reaction by bombarding a sufficient quantity of uranium with a sufficient quantity of neutrons. This led to the development of the atomic bomb and fission reactors."

I'm not sure that's skepticism, it's more of an assertion, but I agree with you it's not categorical.
Otherwise, the vaccine is not a cure-all and it is not even a cure. Vaccination is prevention. That means it can only be an auxiliary tool.
Now the presence of vaccination is becoming an excuse to segregate society, even though there is no scientific basis for it.

PS. One of their writers said: "There is nothing scarier than science-based chauvinism."
Sakashiro
21 Nov 2021, 1:26am
BurstarLMAO did you even read this link?

Of course I did, and that is exactly why I linked to the fact check instead of the original content. But I see you are new to the whole fact checking business, so I guess some context is necessary. I see you also lack the education to understand what science means, so let me clarify for you.

When the vaccines became widely available, many experts (i.e. virologists and immunologists with decades of experience in the field) claimed that once we get 70% percent of the population vaccinated, herd immunity will kick in, the virus will run out of hosts to infect, and the pandemic will be over. So they said, please get vaccinated as soon as possible!

Then there were emerging reports about outbreaks within vaccinated communities. Analysis showed that the vaccines were leaky, they did not prevent transmission. So the experts were asked for comment, and they said, well, the vaccines aren't perfect, but they do prevent hospitalization, so please get vaccinated as soon as possible!

Then the first vaccinated patients showed up in hospitals, and the experts said, yes, it happens, but most hospitalized patients are unvaccinated, so please get vaccinated as soon as possible! The media did their part by coining the term "pandemic of the unvaccinated".

Now herd immunity is considered unattainable, the virus is becoming endemic, and the majority of COVID-19 patients admitted to hospitals are vaccinated, i.e. the experts have been proven wrong on almost all counts. By your own standards, they are now just "some dudes claiming they are a doctor and spewing garbage", right?

Of course science isn't the problem here. The problem is that we are now dealing with a hypothesis that has become non-falsifiable because too many pundits and politicians subscribed to it and see their reputation on the line. When the majority of the hospitalized were unvaccinated, they said it's evidence that the vaccines work, and no fact checker would lift a finger. But now that the majority is vaccinated, the say it's just a statistical effect, nothing to see here, move along! No matter what happens, nothing can falsify their claims because the goal posts keep moving all the time.

Non-falsifiable hypotheses aren't science, they are dogma. Richard Feynman once said, "I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."

There are, by the way, scientists who predicted this. Dr. Geert Vanden Bossche is probably the most notable one, along with Dr. Robert Malone. They warned that a vaccine rollout in the middle of a pandemic would increase the selective pressure on the virus and make the emergence of fitter variants more likely. But the topic is so politicized that even the inventor of the very technology that the COVID-19 vaccines are based on is now considered "some dude claiming they are a doctor and spewing garbage". It is so politicized that if you do suffer side effects from vaccination, everyone will ignore you because you're a data point that isn't supposed to exist. There have been cases where people who developed myocarditis or pericarditis after their second shot were declared nuts and sent away by their physicians.

I'm not anti-vax. Until the pandemic began, my husband and I used to visit Taiwan on a regular basis, so I'm vaccinated against a few tropical diseases that you likely haven't even heard of. But that was my choice, and it was based on a careful evaluation of the risks and benefits. I've done the same evaluation here, and my conclusion is that I wish to remain unvaccinated until there are COVID-19 vaccines that are proven efficacious and safe in the long term. My evaluation is based on the data I provided earlier. In the meantime, I protect myself and others by social distancing and wearing masks. The vaccinated don't do that any more, I see them sitting side by side in crowded restaurants every day. And now they want to blame me for the fact that the case numbers go through the roof. Fuck these idiots!

You can make your own risk/benefit evaluation and come to a different conclusion. Maybe you are old, maybe you have co-morbidities that put you at higher risk. I don't know and I don't care. If it makes you feel safer, by all means do get vaccinated, I'm not going to stop you. But if you subscribe to the idea of forcing young and healthy people into experimental vaccines because you think it'll help some 80 year old sick dude live another year, then you're a fucking nazi. Sorry, but there's no polite way to put it.
Burstar
21 Nov 2021, 7:38am
What a lovely anecdotal piece of reverse logic that boils down to 'we refuse to get vaccinated, so herd immunity isn't working as well as it should, so we shouldn't get vaccinated'.
it's already been shown (by your own evidence) your 'majority of people hospitalized are vaccinated' is a disingenuous point. They are in the hospital because they are members of risk groups (elderly, immunocompromised).
The vaccine has been shown to be effective even with the new variants so long as you've received both your shots.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33626250/

Less so for the Beta and Gamma variants, which is why boosters will be recommended (similar to the annual flu shot.

We have not hit an immune density to be even close to herd immunity so it's too early to draw ANY conclusions as to whether it won't work with Covid.
Herd immunity does not mean the disease is eradicated. It means the outbreaks are contained to a level civilization can handle, or the risk to the vulnerable is minimized (not gone). We have herd immunity for Measles for example, yet Measles outbreaks still exist even when the density of immune exceed 90%. Also, to be realistic, 70% is a low threshold value to begin with. I knew that was crap when I heard it. That number is the bare minimum for the statisticians to start noticing a reduction in spread numbers, and not an 'all clear to have orgies in the streets again'.

Nobody who understands the science believes Herd Immunity is technically unattainable. This is a manipulative argument attempting to prey on those looking for a reason to give up.
If it is unattainable it's only because our education and morals systems have failed and too many people refuse to get vaccinated for the threshold to be reached.

The vaccine is safe, fully FDA approved (for those 'muricans out there, and indicates it will be approved elsewhere soon if not already). The odds of a concerning side effect are ridiculously low: less than 1 in a million (you're more likely to drown in your bathtub, granted this is a cohort SOME of us are more likely to be in ).

Billions of doses have been administered without any doom and gloom predictions coming true. Stop being a coward, get vaccinated (and also wear a mask and social distance even when not required). Your loved ones will thank you for it.

Last edit: 21 Nov 2021, 7:49am
Sakashiro
21 Nov 2021, 9:56am
BurstarNobody who understands the science believes Herd Immunity is technically unattainable.

Two options here, Burstar: Either none of the leading virologists in the UK and Germany understands the science, or you're talking out of your ass. What are the odds?

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/12/herd-immunity-is-mythical-with-the-covid-delta-variant-experts-say.html
Sir Andrew Pollard, head of the Oxford Vaccine Group, told British lawmakers Tuesday that as Covid vaccines did not stop the spread of the virus entirely — with vaccinated people still able to be infected and transmit the virus — the idea of achieving herd immunity was “mythical.”


https://www.t-online.de/gesundheit/krankheiten-symptome/id_90751654/virologe-kekule-warnt-wir-haben-eine-unsichtbare-welle-der-geimpften.html
"Eine Herdenimmunität wird es sowieso nicht geben. Das war von Anfang an eine Illusion, weil sich diese Coronaviren ständig verändern."


https://www.rnd.de/gesundheit/herdenimmunitaet-und-corona-warum-sie-nicht-erreicht-wird-NR2OY5YLQBEGHFZT4RPI6GYJS4.html
Unter anderem hatte zuletzt der Virologe Hendrik Streeck betont, mit den verfügbaren Impfstoffen lasse sich keine Herden­immunität erreichen. Die Vakzine seien dafür auch gar nicht entwickelt worden, sondern für den Eigenschutz. Und auch der Berliner Virologe Christian Drosten sagte kürzlich in einem Interview, es sei von Anfang an ein Missverständnis gewesen zu glauben, eine hohe Impfquote könne auch Ungeimpfte schützen.
Jason Andrews
21 Nov 2021, 10:10am
The vaccine still prevents you from having any serious problems with the virus. Why take the chance?
SnapStr
21 Nov 2021, 11:10am
Burstar
The vaccine is safe, fully FDA approved (for those 'muricans out there, and indicates it will be approved elsewhere soon if not already). The odds of a concerning side effect are ridiculously low: less than 1 in a million (you're more likely to drown in your bathtub, granted this is a cohort SOME of us are more likely to be in ).

Billions of doses have been administered without any doom and gloom predictions coming true. Stop being a coward, get vaccinated (and also wear a mask and social distance even when not required). Your loved ones will thank you for it.


I wonder if those who allowed the Thalidomide scandal thought the same.
I think you are idealizing medicine.
Only a long-term perspective can give a true answer about vaccine safety. Those who were conceived vaccinated have not yet been born and there is no second generation.
You mention Measles, that is a completely different case, this virus hardly mutates so vaccination saves humanity from spreading it, but no collective immunity. Measles is fought exclusively by individual immunity.

Jason AndrewsThe vaccine still prevents you from having any serious problems with the virus. Why take the chance?


This statement is on a par with that of believers. For example, if you were in an accident and someone says that if it were not for God you would surely have died, can you prove otherwise? )
Burstar
21 Nov 2021, 12:13pm
Sakashiro
BurstarNobody who understands the science believes Herd Immunity is technically unattainable.

Two options here, Burstar: Either none ONE of the leading virologists in the UK and Germany understands the science has given up trying to convince you fools and is simply wording it politely, or you're talking out of your ass I'm only willing to listen to scientists that agree with me. What are the odds?

FTFY

He means '... with the current vaccine profile'. Herd Immunity will still be achieved through disease spread. That'll probably be forced eventually. It will be far less pleasant (funny how nobody refers to Covid as a tyrant though), all because the vaccine uptake was too slow to achieve it in the ideal manner. Not because it was impossible. Idiocy and cowardice prevailed due to its empowerment by social media, and a weakness of Democracy. Nothing to be proud of.

Edit: Another possibility, considering I can't find the full statement (just a conveniently incriminating portion of it), is that because he developed the Astra-Zeneca vaccine, the one that isn't effective against the Delta variant, he's referring to AZ vaccine attempts to create HI. I dunno. Pages of research literature that says otherwise, or one guy with a vested interest in discouraging the use of other vaccines that are more effective for that variant...

That same article goes on to point out that those doubly vaccinated are much less likely to test positive for Covid, or spread it (something I already pointed out previously). Herd immunity isn't the only goal with vaccines. It increases survivability of the recipient, slows spread to those around them, and reduces the chances of healthcare systems being overwhelmed during outbreaks. Saving lives.

In conclusion, you want more people to die, particularly your loved ones and anyone close to you, just so you don't have to take one more perfectly safe, tested, free precaution all because you chose to believe charlatans selling snake oil and clicks over experts that all say the same thing even when they disagree on the why.

Last edit: 21 Nov 2021, 12:36pm
Sakashiro
21 Nov 2021, 1:25pm
I'll make this one short.

BurstarHe means

You have read none of the linked articles.

BurstarHerd Immunity will still be achieved through disease spread.

Reinfection + variants. Same reason why there's no herd immunity against the common cold.

Burstarperfectly safe

Proven wrong.
Burstar
21 Nov 2021, 3:06pm
SakashiroI'll make this one short.
BurstarHe means

You have read none of the linked articles.

First, pot calling the kettle black there idn't it (you don't even read your own articles!)? I read the one English link and commented on it. The other 2 would be English Translations of a German Translation of an English speech. I'm not going to assume the meaning holds true through that. I do find it interesting that the only links I could find referencing that speech are all sensationalist rags though so that leads me to believe somethings up.

Sakashiro
BurstarHerd Immunity will still be achieved through disease spread.

Reinfection + variants. Same reason why there's no herd immunity against the common cold.

Except, the common cold is actually many viruses, most in the Rhinovirus family, all of which are specialized in mutating into relatively harmless, yet contagious variants. Not the same thing. Spanish flu would be a more apt comparison. You know, the one that ended with Herd Immunity starving it out until it comes back as an H1N1 variant every few decades? What was its death toll again? Wow, too bad there wasn't a vaccine back then to help fight it off faster...

Sakashiro
Burstarperfectly safe

Proven wrong.

Lies, it is statistically safer than bathing. You still have a bathtub in your house right?
While I'm asking questions, here's another one I asked several posts ago that you conveniently refused to anwer:
BurstarNo, that is not what that paper 'suggests' at all. For starters, the word 'mutagen' does not appear even once in that paper. Also, this line "no evidence has been published that SARS–CoV–2 can infect thymocytes or bone marrow lymphoid cells" is extremely important for understanding the true meaning and scope of the paper. Can you tell me why?
Iwao Kishiro
21 Nov 2021, 4:32pm
To anyone who call mandate vaccinations as "fascism": you should remember by not getting vaccine/wearing a mask/ignoring overall sanitary-pandemic regulations in name of "your rights", you are also violating my right to HEALTH and right to LIFE (as stated both in International Human Rights and Constitution in the country I live in).

You are the one violating my rights in here.

If that's not enough, I am pretty much sure that willingly putting another person into life-threatening situations is a very severe crime in a lot of countries.
Artie
21 Nov 2021, 4:57pm
And with that let drop this topic, please. As usually, opinions vary and it's a similar case as with the politics, religion and so on - there will be endless disputes about it and it will never end well.
Thanks.

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