NFC PhistoCalteruIs there a support role in combat here?
Generally speaking? Yes. Healer/tanks come to mind.
Okay. What's a good example of a support loadout for Elite Dangerous?
Elite: Game talk
20 Dec 2017, 7:52pm
Okay. What's a good example of a support loadout for Elite Dangerous?
20 Dec 2017, 8:00pm
Rebecca HailIf you go from a lore PoV, where the Thargoids ripped apart an entire federal fleet with ease, a fleet which consisted of combat oriented and optimized ships (not even considering the Farragut), those T10 will be ripped apart even easier, too.
It was specifically stated in a Galnet article that research has found capital ships have trouble with Thargoids, but smaller ships (such as we as Commanders fly) have a much easier time against Thargoids. I forget which one, but I believe it was in the text of one of the AX CGs we had recently. Also, the continuing theme is that both the Federation and Empire are over confident and using out of date tactics first formulated against human enemies, against a foe that's not even human. I'd like to think part of the Aegis research being conducted is the formulation of new tactical doctrine. I point to the Vietnam War and the War on Terror for precedent.
How I make things work in my head with the Type-10 in the lore is that it's a stopgap replacement in the Alliance for heavy ship system defence. It fills a role to release the more capable ships like your Anacondas, Pythons, and Fer-de-Lances to combat the Thargoid menace. It's not a front-line combat ship, it's for what's known as the "rear", supply chain security and homeland defence.
20 Dec 2017, 8:09pm
CalteruNFC PhistoCalteruIs there a support role in combat here?
Generally speaking? Yes. Healer/tanks come to mind.
Okay. What's a good example of a support loadout for Elite Dangerous?
Been in wing fights against big/medium wing compositions. Usually Cutters make good fire support ships because they can absorb a lot of punishment and are very fast in a straight line for their size. They can have healing beams on turrets and bring scramble spectrum and emissives to bear on enemy ships. They might not be DPS machines or high alpha damage dealers, but they can add a lot to a wing if they're flown competently.
20 Dec 2017, 8:18pm
Isaiah EvansonCalteruNFC PhistoCalteruIs there a support role in combat here?
Generally speaking? Yes. Healer/tanks come to mind.
Okay. What's a good example of a support loadout for Elite Dangerous?
Been in wing fights against big/medium wing compositions. Usually Cutters make good fire support ships because they can absorb a lot of punishment and are very fast in a straight line for their size. They can have healing beams on turrets and bring scramble spectrum and emissives to bear on enemy ships. They might not be DPS machines or high alpha damage dealers, but they can add a lot to a wing if they're flown competently.
Okay, I meant like a Coriolis link or something, sorry. I know what a logi build looks like in EvE but I've not seen much on the support role in Elite. I tried a Google search and got pretty much what you typed there. If you were going to fly a support ship what would its Coriolis build look like?
20 Dec 2017, 8:23pm
Rebecca HailIndigoWyrd
It takes much longer to construct an entirely new hull than to refit an existing one.
In the days of wooden sailing ships, merchant ships refit as warships would often have armor bolted over the hull and additional timbers added internally to reinforce the hull. Far more existing ships could be refit this way faster than a single dedicated warship could be constructed, and was often done while warships were being built in the shipyards, to maintain naval strength.
We know there are at least two more ships coming next year - the Chieftan and the Krait. Should we have simply waited? Personally, I love the 'improvised' idea. And remember, the Type-10 is not just a simple refit either - it was simply used as base. "Utilising a reinforced Type-9 chassis as a starting point, Lakon overhauled and geared every aspect of the design for combat, producing a military behemoth that could be produced in volume at short notice."
The most important parts to note here are highlighted red. Also, keep in mind that until this point The Alliance has had no ships - still has no unique ships, their navy consisting of ships from neutral shipyards and defector pilots who brought their own navy craft with them. The Alliance has long been the power of idealists, philosophers and and those seeking an alternative to the more militaristic powers of the Federation and the Empire.
Now they're taking their first real steps towards militarization so they have to start somewhere.
We may yet see other ship manufacturers step up as well - Gutamaya, Core Dynamics, Zorgon Peterson, Falcon-deLacey, even Saud Kruger could potentially enter the fight. Some of these, like Gutamaya, Core Dynamics and Falcon-deLacey will have an easier time, as they have traditionally constructed ships meant to engage in combat. Zorgon and Saud might have a tougher time, as they do not (with the exception of the cooperative venture that is the Fer de Lance).
It takes more time to construct the hull with the current level of technology. We actually don't know how long you need to construct a new hull in the ED universe. That the T10 are refitted T9s and not constructed with new T9 hulls (which have to be modified too, as the T10 has more thrusters, more hardpoints, etc), is speculation.
It takes at least a CG, or 7 days, to construct a Capital ship. But seriously, we don't actually KNOW how long it takes Elite Shipyard designers to design, test, and move into actual production of a new ship, largely because it's never really been important, until now. Given the description of the Type-10, as given above, that these are intended to go into rapid production with little notice, we can arrive at a reasonable speculation that it takes more time to design and produce something entirely new than it does to retrofit an existing design.
Rebecca Hail Now consider the enemy they're supposed to hold up against.
From what I've seen so far, the T-10 is a mediocre combat ship at best. Bad hard point placement, a huge hull, mediocre speed, let alone distributor size, jump range and turning speed.
What is your own actual combat experience with this ship? Perhaps you are a better pilot than those you've watched? People have said the Type-7 is a flying coffin, and not worth the pixels its made of. I happen to like mine very much. People say the same sorts of things about every ship that isn't their ideal ship, so the only thing you can really take as gospel is your own experiences. At the time of this writing, I have no experience with the Type-10. I'll find out for myself in a few hours when I get home from work and buy one.
As for the enemy they're meant to face... We know the large capital ships (Farragut and Majestic) are ill-suited to face these aliens, as their sheer size makes it nearly impossible for their counter-EMP module to protect these ships, and once shut down, they seem to fall rather quickly, as would any unpowered ship. The same holds true for space stations - they're simply too large for our current technology to defend against the EMP attacks. Our smaller craft, including Corvettes, Anacondas, Belugas (of all things, I've seen plenty of people solo thargoids with a Beluga) are able to defend themselves with counter-EMP technology.
Rebecca Hail If you go from a lore PoV, where the Thargoids ripped apart an entire federal fleet with ease, a fleet which consisted of combat oriented and optimized ships (not even considering the Farragut), those T10 will be ripped apart even easier, too. They might win with overwhelming numbers and huge numbers of casualties on the own side, but that's not something that's sustainable, not even for the 'short' time until Krait and Chieftain are supposed to replace them. Manpower and trained pilots are still valuable in 3304.
From a lore perspective... see above regarding the Farragut, you also have to consider we knew even less about the thargoids than we do now. Until the first one was down, they were our Bismark - we wanted to sink them, but hadn't managed to do so. The more we learn about something the easier it becomes to kill. And if you consider the video of that ill-fated attack - they only fired one missile salvo and then sat there. Manpower, and trained pilots are important. Stupid ones who just sit there however are a liability.
Having engaged these myself on a few occasions, I can say that we have some smaller ships suitable for engagement - The Federal Gunship is quite well suited, as is the Python and the Anaconda. My first thargoid kill was made in an Orca of all things, rigged not for combat, but for Search and Rescue.
Rebecca Hail And that's not considering a potential conflict with another human military force. The T10 would simply not been able to stand up to those, unless the enemy is massively outnumbered.
I fly an exploration-built Beluga into combat regularly. I also fly a Type-9 freighter with a pair of packhounds, a multicannon and pair of small beams. I've never so much as lost my shields to a pirate. I also know a few people who have used Type-9's for CZ and Haz RES hunting - it cane be done, so the Type-10, as a counter-human ship will likely prove even more effective. Again, this comes down to personal experience.
Rebecca Hail I can see it's place as a capable supportship, but the backbone of the navy doesn't consist of support ships. If they really start to militarize, they need vessels more capable of combat then that monstrosity they produced there.
Actually the backbone of any combat force, be it land, sea, air or space IS the support and supply lines. Cut off the supply lines, and you can wait out the largest armies in the field. Just ask Germany about that invasion of Russia. And I do very much agree - as a supply and support ship, the Type-10 might prove to be fantastic. It might also fit the role of Panther Clipper Cub, as I can see it being outfitted with some pretty heavy weapons with low distributor draws (Cannons, Multicannons, Remote Flak, Frag cannons, missile racks/packhound racks) and some smaller higher draw weapons (small or medium burst lasers) and being highly effective, despite not having a Class 10 distributor.
And once again, these are not meant to become a Main Fighting Force - they're called a "Defender", which suggests they're meant for a Defensive not Offensive role. They're a shieldwall, not a spearhead.
20 Dec 2017, 8:29pm
20 Dec 2017, 8:30pm
CalteruNFC PhistoCalteruIs there a support role in combat here?
Generally speaking? Yes. Healer/tanks come to mind.
Okay. What's a good example of a support loadout for Elite Dangerous?
Ohh, I know... My very own Rescue Zero: https://tinyurl.com/yd73n7vj
Fuel Transfer, Repair, Regenerative beam laser - it's a sleek support role ship and does a nice job of keeping fighting craft alive.
Last edit: 20 Dec 2017, 9:55pm
20 Dec 2017, 8:42pm
IndigoWyrd
Ohh, I know... My very own Rescue Zero: https://coriolis.io/outfit/orca?code=A0pftnFflsdksif50v272702040403mn0437B22b9rF42f.Iw18SQ%3D%3D.Aw18SQ%3D%3D.H4sIAAAAAAAAA1WQvUoDURCFJ8lu3GSzbnY3CYuIkj8VQVE7uzRBbUTUQgvxpxREyDtIfBFfwAewsRQsLC1EBYWgWCmiJjOeKfaitxg%2BOOfMnRniISIa2CjubprIq%2BaIAgcUdvJEjfMUkaS4pSYgOcs%2FIuErqPLEIpLmSpL3J1FKcwOR8hSicdEiqq%2BXkM%2FwiDEdfyLf9uG8LMK070C3eF51S%2FWFN%2BgHz2ht82KSyoX4K78Nb1WpptRUmlCSLO%2BZ%2FrePyN%2Fdi8yuvaOJwxuJ1McoZF9ji2z0IRJfYZL64QtMLjfVlEGh0wir37SJRns1tC7wkrlPBwP6K98igVJ85OI%2BSuL9MZ2pafMLJqV4y4NJSUJeNUN2cZ%2Fgoi%2FSGCtAinja5LuYYriF0wRK4Yl%2BoiRlHjf5mR6W3HnA6EL%2F3i%2BxudkkzwEAAA%3D%3D.EweloBhBmcBYQFMCGBzANokICMF9A%3D%3D%3D
Fuel Transfer, Repair, Regenerative beam laser - it's a sleek support role ship and does a nice job of keeping fighting craft alive.
Thanks for the baseline! I'm guessing then there's no means of restoring a shield as support so I'd have to focus on healing hull. Do repair limpets stack? Let's say I took out the fuel scoop and threw on a 5A repair controller. What kind of HPS am I looking at? Can I get a whole wing doing this to like an Anaconda or a Corvette or something really beefy and just have a god squadron going?
20 Dec 2017, 8:59pm
Calteru
Thanks for the baseline! I'm guessing then there's no means of restoring a shield as support so I'd have to focus on healing hull. Do repair limpets stack? Let's say I took out the fuel scoop and threw on a 5A repair controller. What kind of HPS am I looking at? Can I get a whole wing doing this to like an Anaconda or a Corvette or something really beefy and just have a god squadron going?
Restoring Shields are exactly what Regeneration beams are for - they won't fix a collapsed shield, only time can fix that, but a Regeneration laser can raise a shield from 1% to 100% in relatively little time - much faster than 4 pips in systems and a shield cell battery can, without the heat production.
Repair limpets do not stack, nor do multiple limpets from different ships. And given ship can have exactly 1 Repair limpet attached to it at a time.
You can, however, stick multiple limpets, up to the limit of your repair controller on multiple ships - I do this regularly when flying in wings. The caveat with repair limpets is that they will be destroyed by incoming damage, so ships being repaired need to get out of the line of fire while their hulls are being mended.
The only thing that can't be done is Module Repair - this is a function of the AFM Unit, and needs to be installed on a ship to trigger module repair.
20 Dec 2017, 9:04pm
20 Dec 2017, 9:43pm
20 Dec 2017, 9:57pm
Rebecca HailIndigoWyrd, could you edit that large link into a hyperlink? It makes the board really hard to read since it's distorting the format (at least on p480).
I made it a TinyURL instead. Not quite adept at these forums, didn't realize it made a monolithic URL instead of link automatically.
For the discussions about the community, other stuff related to the game like astrophysics and so on please use the General talk thread.
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