Elite: Game talk

Rainbro
15 Jan 2022, 3:06pm
Burstar the Magnificently Mediocre Community Goals being a player affected part of the story are an illusion. They are binary 'choices' in which both paths inevitably lead to the same future just with a different historical footnote.


It's certainly not as-marketed, and there are fixed points to the story, but that doesn't mean it can't be influenced. Indeed you acknowledge this yourself - just reducing the different outcomes to "historical footnotes".

The BGS is a minigame unrelated to (but affected by) GalNet events.


What are your thoughts on this article, specifically:

“Meanwhile, many Federal factions are carefully observing those who did become independent. Their future success or failure may well determine whether or not this rebellion continues.”
Waylongway
15 Jan 2022, 3:16pm
EpisparhImagine the poor sod that reads the spreadsheet line by line then manually sends the SQL query to add those FSDs

I have a picture in my mind where they gave a huge pile of paper with the Cmdr names listed to the intern and they enter that into the DB.
Someone at the forums had a good point, though, that they'll wait for the next update to fix the engineering ability. Would be reasonable, but then, you never know what they come up with.
Burstar
15 Jan 2022, 3:49pm
Rainbro
Burstar the Magnificently Mediocre Community Goals being a player affected part of the story are an illusion. They are binary 'choices' in which both paths inevitably lead to the same future just with a different historical footnote.


It's certainly not as-marketed, and there are fixed points to the story, but that doesn't mean it can't be influenced. Indeed you acknowledge this yourself - just reducing the different outcomes to "historical footnotes".

Yes, what I mean is it's like a "Choose your own adventure" book. You get to flip the page to the number you want, but the outcome is already predetermined (you inevitably die a horrible death if you recall those old books )

Rainbro
Burstar the Magnificently Mediocre The BGS is a minigame unrelated to (but affected by) GalNet events.

What are your thoughts on this article, specifically:

“Meanwhile, many Federal factions are carefully observing those who did become independent. Their future success or failure may well determine whether or not this rebellion continues.”


My thoughts are essentially that it's all fluff there to maintain the illusion. If it's part of FDevs narrative that more Fed factions revolt (as it was for the first set) then they will, whether we do anything to instigate it or not. Also, flipping ownership of systems is already something that readily occurs daily via normal BGS actions. Therefore, that whole entire CG line was basically something to do but itself meaningless otherwise.
As for whether they win or not in this hypothetical future revolt. That outcome either wouldn't matter, or will, in which case the reward will be obviously imbalanced so that the outcome is certain.

If you really want to look for possibly influential actions in the game then one that might be a possibility is something discussed in Elite:Lore ages ago. That is the consistent trend that the number of systems that each of the Fed and Empire Superpowers control has been steadily declining for years. Theoretically it's possible that enough, if not all, of the systems (except the core systems where it's impossible), become lost to the point FDev have no choice but to address it. Even then, I suspect they would rather implement hard coded locks to prevent this than change their narrative. This is also highly unlikely because I think it would take another decade before this became even close to possible.
Rainbro
15 Jan 2022, 5:11pm
Those books are a good way to put it, though the ones I had did allow you to win. Still a high chance of sudden failure, though that is also appropriate to the odds of any given attempt influencing things.

The quote from the article is about as close as we can get to Frontier telling us its possible, by pointing out one such opportunity. It's impossible to prove it's not an illusion, but it wouldn't be fair to assume that unless the future narrative contradicts that article and the actual state of the factions that seceded.

As for whether they win or not in this hypothetical future revolt. That outcome either wouldn't matter, or will, in which case the reward will be obviously imbalanced so that the outcome is certain.


Personally I think the impact of modules is outweighed by other factors, but what sort of outcome would "matter"? Would some sort of lore-based conclusion like the removal of the PDB count, or would it have to have to matter in terms of gameplay, ie large-scale revolt of Federal systems?

Also, flipping ownership of systems is already something that readily occurs daily via normal BGS actions. Therefore, that whole entire CG line was basically something to do but itself meaningless otherwise.


The normal flipping of systems was referenced in another GalNet. It's a somewhat inadequate attempt to explain away the overlap between BGS activity and the results of the storyline, but there is a distinction - if only that these changes can be given greater meaning in the lore than just "local politics" because Frontier have already given them a reason for happening, and tied them to these other lore events.

In the same sort of way, I don't think BGS actions have even the slim chance of affecting the lore unless they're already tied to it in some way. The Pleiades being taken over by PMFs hasn't been commented on because PMFs aren't part of official lore and it'd also just be a nightmare to try and write that situation in. Meanwhile, Alliance players pushing the Alliance NPC faction to take over Witch-Head has affected the lore, because that NPC faction was already part of a storyline which could then be extended. This could probably just boil down to the difference between trying to create new lore and influencing existing lore.
Lily Flemmon
15 Jan 2022, 5:28pm
Burstar the Magnificently Mediocre
I agree that Elite is immersive and an excellent setting for developing your pErSoNaL NaRaTiVe but to me it's important to make the reality clear: The players do not affect the storyline. Period. That's where I draw the line. RP? Ofc. Develop stories within your own communities? Perfect. Did you matter before joining the game, during, and after you leave? Absolutely not. My issue is with this pipedream of being a consequence in this world where that couldn't be further from the truth. Why is this important? Because for years FDev have marketed along these lines. It's a lie, one of many we're all aware of and choose to ignore to one extent or another as this entire line of dialogue shows.

Would I really want to exterminate all the Goids permanently? Actually, yes! But, only if that was a legitimate result expressly due to the combined actions of myself, friends and dedicated AX combatants (edit: and despite the efforts of Thargoid sympathizers). Why? A true accomplishment. One that could forever be branded in the game history as something we achieved despite all odds. Never happen though. Even if the Goids ever were erradicated it would be because of a stroke of a pen somewhere in Cambridge and that truth permeates everything we 'do' in this game.

So, write your fan fiction, create your own pErSoNaL NaRaTiVe as much as you want, love the Elite world however much rocks your boat. Just don't delude yourself into thinking you actually have a real effect on the official story.



Face it, we have more influence in Elite than we do in the real world. EG Union is a wonderful example of that. And yeah, it's still very close to no influence in the game's story, but that fits perfectly, because the BGS and lore all is made to give players a "cog in the machine" feel, which in turn emphasizes the overall theme of commentary on the human condition.
RP definitely isn't for everyone, and that's totally okay. What makes you seem rude is that you're criticizing the playstyle of many other players in a game designed to have a very wide myriad of available playstyles, and that's honestly just awkward and disruptive. Seems kind of like you're complaining about politics in videogames, and specifically a game designed around politics. Remember, the Elite universe started as an 80s space opera that had a little game to go along with it.
Burstar
15 Jan 2022, 7:07pm
Lily Flemmon What makes you seem rude is that you're criticizing the playstyle of many other players in a game designed to have a very wide myriad of available playstyles, and that's honestly just awkward and disruptive. Seems kind of like you're complaining about politics in videogames, and specifically a game designed around politics. Remember, the Elite universe started as an 80s space opera that had a little game to go along with it.

I haven't criticized anyone's gameplay. I've clearly stated if you want to RP have at it. You interpreted sarcasm where there was none. I quite explicitly said the line is where the RP gets twisted into the belief it actually affects the grand story already written by the FDev authors.

RainbroThose books are a good way to put it, though the ones I had did allow you to win. Still a high chance of sudden failure, though that is also appropriate to the odds of any given attempt influencing things.

The quote from the article is about as close as we can get to Frontier telling us its possible, by pointing out one such opportunity. It's impossible to prove it's not an illusion, but it wouldn't be fair to assume that unless the future narrative contradicts that article and the actual state of the factions that seceded.

As for whether they win or not in this hypothetical future revolt. That outcome either wouldn't matter, or will, in which case the reward will be obviously imbalanced so that the outcome is certain.


Personally I think the impact of modules is outweighed by other factors,

This has been demonstrated false time and time again. It doesn't matter how righteous the cause, or how clear one side is BS, the side with the better reward wins.

Rainbro but what sort of outcome would "matter"? Would some sort of lore-based conclusion like the removal of the PDB count, or would it have to have to matter in terms of gameplay, ie large-scale revolt of Federal systems?

This is the real question. For me, it would mean some tangible, permanent, effect clearly evident in the game world and not some 'X novel, isolated concept mentioned in Galnet causes Y conflict and the CG results in Z conclusion and the whole fiasco never heard about again, the end'. So your example of the PDB being removed wouldn't count. It's an arbitrary concept you hear about but have no tangible interaction with at all. If it were to be removed nobody would know without an express message in Galnet.

If were were able to simultaneously cause multiple Superpower conflicts in an area and this resulted in a major Bubble wide Superpower conflict that lasted for a year+ that would count. If the Thargoids had been beaten back by player effort and not handwaved Salvation interference and this resulted in a major Thargoid counterattack that seriously became an existential crisis, and either of these events were the result of automatic programmed behaviour (not a scripted event produced by hand because the the Gods said it was time) then they would count. As it stands now things like that don't happen.

Rainbro
Also, flipping ownership of systems is already something that readily occurs daily via normal BGS actions. Therefore, that whole entire CG line was basically something to do but itself meaningless otherwise.


The normal flipping of systems was referenced in another GalNet. It's a somewhat inadequate attempt to explain away the overlap between BGS activity and the results of the storyline, but there is a distinction - if only that these changes can be given greater meaning in the lore than just "local politics" because Frontier have already given them a reason for happening, and tied them to these other lore events.

In the same sort of way, I don't think BGS actions have even the slim chance of affecting the lore unless they're already tied to it in some way. The Pleiades being taken over by PMFs hasn't been commented on because PMFs aren't part of official lore and it'd also just be a nightmare to try and write that situation in. Meanwhile, Alliance players pushing the Alliance NPC faction to take over Witch-Head has affected the lore, because that NPC faction was already part of a storyline which could then be extended. This could probably just boil down to the difference between trying to create new lore and influencing existing lore.


The only way to affect the Lore that can in any way be considered plausible, is through the CG's and they are tailor made to either be a false choice, an inconsequential one, or both. Take this previous one as an example. A bridge to Colonia is getting built whether we want one or not. The only question is how many CGs are they going to use to get us to build it. Hypothetically they can just say 'oh, the first didn't pan out? Guess we'll make the next one super easy and quadruple the stations/megaships and this time add triple engineered FSD's as a reward'. The current CG? Not even worth discussing.

If you were able to support rebel factions, fund counter-intelligence efforts, hack or destroy PDB listening posts and this actually did something game/lore wise I'd be very happy. IF it were automated like a hidden CG that adds up all the BGS/hacking/credits spent fighting the PDB and so when enough accrued over a short enough period it triggered an overt CG that decided what happened. Instead Winters randomly attacks, loses, and now we're permanently 'stuck' with it (even though we never see it) no matter what until the next Fed election maybe (or until the narrator decides it's time for part III of the story).

For me, it's a glaring disconnect from the rest of the game. Most everything is automated, and sure many don't like how that makes the game repetitive/grindy, but if they had legitimately added the politics into the automation such that it ran like a giant Civilzations 6 scenario complete with random but influenced and influential events. Imagine a 1 in a trillion chance that you encounter a Duval complete with royal entourage enroute somewhere and were able to interact in some small but meaningful way. For example, her ship may be too powerful to destroy, but attack and you get a perma bounty in Empire space and a Galnet news blurb with your name on it in Empire space stations etc... Maybe a wing actually pulls it off and truly affects the lore and lives on forever in infamy...
Andadromous
15 Jan 2022, 7:43pm
I have not been around for long enough to truly have a feel for the long term consequences of CG’s, but looking back at current ones I do see how at least one could have alerted the mid-term narrative arc of the galaxy. That’s the Admiral Tanner/Taurus Mining conflict. I’m assuming that the moves to disassemble AEGIS are influenced in large part by that.

I don’t recall that one having a material reward that could be used to entice players to the “correct” side for FDev’s writers if they are tightly controlling that story.

The long arc of history etc etc I think yes AEGIS was going to fall to serve a pre-planned larger scale Thargoid conflict, so there’s a sense of inevitability there, but are we perhaps following a different path to that endpoint.
Sakashiro
15 Jan 2022, 9:57pm
Burstar the Magnificently MediocreI know you think you have a point, but you're wrong.

You want player agency to a level that allows factions to literally remove parts of the game. That's never going to happen, not in ED nor in any other game, because it's a stupid idea. I'll give you an example that may help you understand why. I'm sure you remember the slave carrier scam. Now imagine some ganker factions working together to replace, say, Arissa Lavigny-Duval and then run the Empire according to their rules. Now that would make ED a fun game, right? Blaze your own trail, to a tee.

It's very easy, really. Just look at the players that you consider the most toxic, look at the trolls, look at the apparently 12-year-old carebears in system chat, and then imagine them calling the shots over everything you do in the game. That's all it takes to understand why unlimited player agency is a bad idea. You can complain about FDev's incompetence as a GM all day long, but without a GM in charge, the game would fall apart in no time.
Iwao Kishiro
15 Jan 2022, 10:03pm
Agreed with Yuna, because I come from a place that in time turned into circle-jerking and abuse towards the unaffiliated players and their characters if they did not belong to so-called "official factions" while everything has been balanced to the best players, staying away from casual stuff into very thin elitist group - both in ship/skill to roleplay influence over certain things. And all that happened despite people who were doing something akin to GM/Dev role.

Now this place is basically dead, despite theoretically new content and plot changes... A lot of players simply left and moved on.



Someone might point out "but EVE Online..." Yes. There is EVE Online although you should take into consideration two things: the economy is entirely driven by players along with high risk of permanent loss of assets (that have massive value in dollars), the second being attitude of the players themselves who in not so rare of cases are adults with factual sociological, economical and political knowledge - and the same kind of attitude usually follows, with agreements taking place on conferences that seriously remind me of G7 or similar high ground meetings.

Last edit: 15 Jan 2022, 10:14pm
Kaizimm
15 Jan 2022, 10:31pm
The last time the BGS actually affected the grander lore narrative in some meaningful way was when Yuri Grom was created.

But I honestly doubt anything like the Dangerous Games will ever happen again. Acknowledging the BGS community in any way is not the direction FDev seem to be taking Elite.
Rainbro
15 Jan 2022, 11:11pm
This is the real question. For me, it would mean some tangible, permanent, effect clearly evident in the game world and not some 'X novel, isolated concept mentioned in Galnet causes Y conflict and the CG results in Z conclusion and the whole fiasco never heard about again, the end'. So your example of the PDB being removed wouldn't count. It's an arbitrary concept you hear about but have no tangible interaction with at all. If it were to be removed nobody would know without an express message in Galnet.


That's where we disagree, I guess. The PDB either becoming permanently established or abolished would be a lore concept, but is that not what this is about, affecting the lore?

If you were able to support rebel factions, fund counter-intelligence efforts, hack or destroy PDB listening posts and this actually did something game/lore wise I'd be very happy.


Short of the specific gameplay being created for this purpose, I think this is what they've tried to imply through GalNet. If the secessionist factions see continued support, and grow, there will be consequences from that. If they're attacked and lose their systems, it'll go the other way. The BGS mechanics are being reused for this purpose, because...yeah, we're not gonna see new gameplay from this. But that's fine. We'll see if it does result in lore changes in the future, I guess.

The only way to affect the Lore that can in any way be considered plausible, is through the CG's and they are tailor made to either be a false choice, an inconsequential one, or both. Take this previous one as an example.


The example of Colonia Bridge is certainly valid. Single-sided CGs have always been setup to succeed, no matter what. But then, I think it would be unreasonable to expect possible branching paths with every single CG.

As for the choices we do have, that probably just comes down to differences in what we consider consequential. Depends on what bits of the lore you're invested in, I guess.

And as for non-CG actions, there's the PDB stuff as I mentioned previously. Several of the Marlinist Colonies had been overtaken by outside forces, before players grouped together to restore them. The Alliance takeover of Witch-Head became official lore and lead to the Coalsack invasion, which is now leading to Sirius massively increasing their influence in the Alliance. In general, I think this latest phase of GalNet has been much better at involving the BGS than it used to be.
Quillmonkey
15 Jan 2022, 11:35pm
Jeez guys. What's with the wall of words?

Sorry, could only be arsed to read a few entries but generally agree with Lily.
And Saka has a very good point - Elite is very like a tabletop RPG because that is exactly what inspired it (Space Opera &
Traveller RPG - right down to CMDR Jameson.)

Last edit: 15 Jan 2022, 11:42pm
Kurakil
16 Jan 2022, 12:24am
Personally I find most of the story elements rather meh. The only way to really know what is happening is to read text. You would never know about anyone or learn about the goings on of the galaxy through gameplay alone. I prefer story told through gameplay. In this game, the gameplay and story are largely disconnected. It would be better if they were tied together I think is the main point. So we create our own stories to put meaning behind the gameplay, whether it changes anything in the game or not.
Burstar
16 Jan 2022, 12:43am
Rainbro And as for non-CG actions, there's the PDB stuff as I mentioned previously. Several of the Marlinist Colonies had been overtaken by outside forces, before players grouped together to restore them. The Alliance takeover of Witch-Head became official lore and lead to the Coalsack invasion, which is now leading to Sirius massively increasing their influence in the Alliance. In general, I think this latest phase of GalNet has been much better at involving the BGS than it used to be.

To me this seems like affirming the consequent, but, I do agree that there does 'seem' to be a possible improvement with BGS being related to the Galnet and I hope this trend continues and strengthens.

I will temper your WHN observations with the fact that the only Player faction in it, the Xeno Research Group (a subsidiary of the AXI) is expansion banned and stuck in its home system there. So on the one hand you have possible player agency expanding NPC factions into the Lore books and the other that its cost is inhibiting actual player factions.

Yuna Sakashiro You want player agency to a level that allows factions to literally remove parts of the game. That's never going to happen, not in ED nor in any other game, because it's a stupid idea.

No no, a stupid idea is equating Chess to an RPG.
It has happened, case already mentioned: Eve Online, you know, the game with one of the most famous player controlled economies out there fast approaching 2 decades of age? See thing is, you hear 'potential for permanent loss' and immediately go to "I'll get bullied" when the reality is it fosters a stronger community. The level of combined effort that it should take to permanently scour the Galaxy of goids would REQUIRE immense combined efforts to both do or conversely thwart. You're staring at a tree when there's a whole forest behind it Saka.
It could even be impossible (I mean if we're going to take FDev lying to us a dozen times over what's one more time in the grand scheme of things?), so long as it was believed to be possible by the community (and so long as the efforts themselves became canon).
Banger705
16 Jan 2022, 1:00am
Salmonea
Banger705has the combat rank got a bug i still at 27%. and still on 11 july 2021 @27%

done 4-5 missions 2day for inara nexus. killing 3 pirates ships / 3 mission npc / 4 assassination mission / 1 bio


Imagine then how many hundreds enemies you have to kill for move about 1% in high ranks


probably less than the deaths :CRY:

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