Elite: Lore
15 Mar 2020, 6:06pm
If you need to get somewhere and are only presented with a single door can you reasonably call it "voluntary" to go through that door? Of course not.
Regarding sex work, have you read the lore (in game and out) in regards to Imperial society? They are ruthless, power hungry individuals with no scruples. Take Denton Patreus, for example. His Powerplay lore essentially describes a mafia. His organization makes predatory loans to vulnerable system governments and when they default uses his personal navy to subjugate the system and set up a tax scheme favorable to his interests. It's old fashioned extortion, plain and simple.
So you honestly think a man like that, and the people that work for him, are going to have any thought to the "safety, treatment, health, and well being" of a fine lookin' piece of ass? Slave or no?
15 Mar 2020, 6:15pm
15 Mar 2020, 6:19pm
John MontagTake Denton Patreus, for example.
Enter the one REAL flaw of the Empire: Denton Patreus is a senator. Senators as well as the Emperor are placed ABOVE the law. While the former still have to report to the latter, at least in theory, they can do whatever they want without getting punished for it. And yes, that also includes murder and mistreatment of slaves.
So no, I don't think the way Denton acts is representative of the Imperial society in general, especially when issues like dignitas and treatment of slaves are concerned.
15 Mar 2020, 6:23pm
Synthya WylderI think your criticism there is directed more at a particular "bad apple" rather than a culture in general. But who am I to say, I'm still a 'Green Newb' in E:D.[quote=Amata Lirein][quote=John Montag]Take Denton Patreus, for example.
They're all that way. Give me a few and I'll post some in-game screens with commentary.
15 Mar 2020, 6:34pm
Don't worry. I hate all the Powerplay factions equally.
First up, Denton.
Just like I said: loans tons of money to undermine systems and then brings in the navy to take control. Private security makes sure they stay in line after that.
Next, the darling Aisling.
She uses "viral propaganda campaigns" to create a lovely populist vision of the Empire (never mind it's not the reality). Then her people acquire (how, I wonder?) media and news organizations to "socially engineer" the populace. They keep control by promoting her cult of personality.
Torval Time.
Easy peasy. She buys all the things then hires guns to keep it in line. Sounds like she's a big fan of black sites, too. Sounds a bit Federal, don't it?
Finally, the Emperor herself.
A law and order zealot leveraging "intelligence" to justify her own fleet actions against vulnerable systems. Then she sends in the true believers to keep things under control.
Seems pretty clear to me they're all bad apples. Of course, in character, y'all are free to support or fight whomever you want. That's part of the game. But if you're out of character, I'd strongly recommend a deep dive into the lore both in game and out (Drew Wagar's books are great for this) so you really understand what's going on in-universe.
I dare say if you honestly believe in whatever any of these characters are doing in-game you've been bamboozled.
15 Mar 2020, 6:43pm
Zemina TorvalThose who treat their slaves badly should receive the same. After all, how can they work properly if they are not cared for correctly?
Zemina Torval is a senator of the Empire. As the controlling shareholder in Mastopolos Mining, her time is split between business and politics. She is a traditionalist, emphasising the importance of Imperial slavery and of taking proper care of one's Imperial Slaves. She has a substantial military fleet, but prefers diplomacy to force when possible. She takes the long, considered approach to amassing power.
(Source)
So as you can see: Treating your slaves right is a matter of honor to the average Imperial[/quote]
15 Mar 2020, 6:44pm
Amata LireinOh, nice that you bring up Zemina Torval... lets have a look at her stance towards the treatment of slaves, shall we? (Which iirc is the topic at hand we were discussing)
Zemina TorvalThose who treat their slaves badly should receive the same. After all, how can they work properly if they are not cared for correctly?
Zemina Torval is a senator of the Empire. As the controlling shareholder in Mastopolos Mining, her time is split between business and politics. She is a traditionalist, emphasising the importance of Imperial slavery and of taking proper care of one's Imperial Slaves. She has a substantial military fleet, but prefers diplomacy to force when possible. She takes the long, considered approach to amassing power.
(Source)
So as you can see: Treating your slaves right is a matter of honor to the average Imperial
Fair enough, but my position is that the honor of the average Imperial is objectively trash, period dot.
15 Mar 2020, 6:49pm
Relevant:
In many ways Senator Torval represents the solid and traditional politics of the Imperial Senate. She is seen as a paradox by some, particularly with regard to her views on Imperial slavery. She adopts the position that tradition expects but that many fail to achieve in the care of the millions of slaves from her business interests. She can be vocal in condemning those who fail to take proper care of their slaves, but she is equally open about how they form the foundation of the Empire.
She's considered a paradox because she believes "tradition expects but that many fail to achieve" the ideal slaves should be taken care of.
That makes it sound like slaves are not well treated generally.
15 Mar 2020, 6:53pm
John MontagDon't worry. I hate all the Powerplay factions equally.
With most of 'em I can see it, especially the Imperial factions, but...
What argument could you possible raise against Mahon?
15 Mar 2020, 6:55pm
John MontagFair enough, but my position is that the honor of the average Imperial is objectively trash, period dot.
IMO that depends on how the player wants to RP it, no matter if they play as an Imperial or not. While I'm pretty sure that there're those who just pretend to be honorable (no matter if NPC or PC) I think the vast majority of Imperial society are actually quite honorable people, living by their dignitas, and are victims of a lot of prejudice towards them as most Federal and Allied persons only bothered to learn half-truths and propaganda about their faction (which I'm fully aware of can be said vice versa as well).
15 Mar 2020, 7:04pm
John MontagHold up. The footnote on that wiki article is this: https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/55bf2cf49657ba951f237d68
Relevant:
In many ways Senator Torval represents the solid and traditional politics of the Imperial Senate. She is seen as a paradox by some, particularly with regard to her views on Imperial slavery. She adopts the position that tradition expects but that many fail to achieve in the care of the millions of slaves from her business interests. She can be vocal in condemning those who fail to take proper care of their slaves, but she is equally open about how they form the foundation of the Empire.
She's considered a paradox because she believes "tradition expects but that many fail to achieve" the ideal slaves should be taken care of.
That makes it sound like slaves are not well treated generally.
That does not contradict my point about Imperial society as a whole though. While I do honestly believe that she thinks that way as her wiki page points out she ultimately fails in living up to her own standards by the sheer number of slaves she owns. It's just impossible to see to it personally that all of those millions of slaves are treated as they should. I kinda doubt though that the average citizen can afford that many slaves though.
edit:
Oh, and to put your quote back in context: "[...]that tradition expects but that many fail to achieve in the care of the millions of slaves from her business interests[...]" <--- very important distinction
15 Mar 2020, 7:08pm
KaizimmWith most of 'em I can see it, especially the Imperial factions, but...
What argument could you possible raise against Mahon?
Free trade is great and all but I can't trust anyone with this much power. 1.2 trillion people live under his influence.
Beyond that, his actions in Premonition don't compel me to trust him. Bill Turner (who lives in Alioth) is a Club lackey and was working on a stealth FSD drive based on Thargoid technology. It looks like Mahon made a play to acquire that technology. Why?
Amata Lirein IMO that depends on how the player wants to RP it, no matter if they play as an Imperial or not. While I'm pretty sure that there're those who just pretend to be honorable (no matter if NPC or PC) I think the vast majority of Imperial society are actually quite honorable people, living by their dignitas, and are victims of a lot of prejudice towards them as most Federal and Allied persons only bothered to learn half-truths and propaganda about their faction (which I'm fully aware of can be said vice versa as well).
Imperial society is a top-down autocratic structure, right? If the leaders are terrible why wouldn't the rest of the populace follow their lead?
It sounds to me like "I want to RP Imperial and I'm a good person therefore Imperials must be good people too" is your reasoning.
15 Mar 2020, 7:15pm
15 Mar 2020, 7:16pm
John MontagImperial society is a top-down autocratic structure, right? If the leaders are terrible why wouldn't the rest of the populace follow their lead?
It sounds to me like "I want to RP Imperial and I'm a good person therefore Imperials must be good people too" is your reasoning.
While it is a strict hierachy you should not forget that only the top two castes are above the law: The Emperor and the senators. Everyone else must live by it or face the consequences. And since you want to keep your standing within said hierachy (again: see "dignitas" ) you will comply to the rules that are layed out to you.
15 Mar 2020, 7:24pm
Synthya WylderPerhaps, another way of looking at it might be, RP-wise, is that it's far easier & more notable RPing a 'paragon of virtue' among so few, vs among so many.
In my perspective there are too many good guy players in Elite. Not nearly enough proper scoundrels. Just look at the community goals: they always succeeded with little or no true opposition. Heck, they didn't even really give the option to fight them.
Amata LireinWhile it is a strict hierachy you should not forget that only the top two castes are above the law: The Emperor and the senators. Everyone else must live by it or face the consequences. And since you want to keep your standing within said hierachy (again: see "dignitas" ) you will comply to the rules that are layed out to you.
Sounds like everyone but the emperor and senators is a slave.