Elite: Lore
15 Mar 2020, 9:29am
15 Mar 2020, 2:23pm
Amata LireinYeah, if student debt were as much of a problem in the Empire as it is in the US right now I guess most students would enter slavery after graduating <.<
In a way, they do - wage slaves - although after whatever schooling generally yields some sort of degree, whether it's useful enough to be in demand remains a question. I've seen many who graduate with a degree & find themselves flipping burgers in a fast-food joint, for instance.
In that way, I see the Imperial societal design superior to the Federation, & slaves equating to voluntary indentured servitude which someone can work themselves out of debt, rather than remaining one for the rest of their lives; in that regard, for some in the Federation, their abilities, whatever they may be, may be insufficient to raise them beyond that in what I understand is the dog-eat-dog society of the Federation which seems to place their "god" in the Corporations; that the lines seem blurred between the theoretical democratic process & the purely profit-driven motivation of the Corporations in actual/realistic practice.
From what I've read of E:D lore, & mirrored to a large degree in RL, the Federation is rife with duality & dichotomy between what is portrayed & the reality in practice; whereas, for the Imperial, what you see is what you get. They cast no illusions of who & what they are.
If for no other reason than that alone, I would respect the Imperial system over that of the Federation; not that the Imperial faction is without its flaws as well.
15 Mar 2020, 2:28pm
15 Mar 2020, 4:30pm
In the context of Elite and being a member of the PIlots Federation it's better to let no one rule you and find your own way.
15 Mar 2020, 5:13pm
Both are not monolithic when it comes to their internal workings. They're made up from a myriad of different factions that are more or less aligned with them, which rule over local laws and culture. There are no blanket statements that can cover how life in both of them is.
Most of what you describe, wage slavery (which is a dumb term, I'll come to that later), dog-eats-dog, and so on will most likely happen in Corporate factions. Both the Empire and the Federation have several thousand of those each. While it's safe to say that such behaviour exists within the Federation, it'd be fairly illogical if imperial Corporate factions wouldn't behave similiar. Since Imperial slavery is strongly regulated, I could see an additional incentive for Corporations to actively avoid imperial slavery, when it doesn't come to highly specialized tasks. A worker for menial tasks can be replaced as easily in the Empire as they can be replaced in the Federation.
Of course, neither in the Federation nor in the Empire you need to be part of a Corporate faction. Both house a lot of vastly different factions, the Federation for example has a vast number of democracies under its wing, too. That number is not quite as large as the number of corporations but still pretty sizeable. The Empire on the opposite houses not only Corporations and Patronages, it also consists of a big number of dictatorships.
It's possible in both superpowers that you'll be part of a prospering society and live the good life, or that you'll have to live your life in an absolute dump, that mercilessly throws you away once you've lost your usefulness. Boiling that down to "Life in that superpower is shit, life in that other superpower is great." is a very simplistic way of looking at things.
As for the wage slavery. There is no such thing. Depending on a job does not equal slavery in the least. Your basic human rights aren't rendered ineffective by that. You retain freedom of movement, freedom to choose your employer, freedom to voice your opinion, you're not the property of another human. If your own circumstances do not allow you to do any of that, it won't become slavery.
Imperial slavery on the other hand actively renders those basic human rights ineffective, that's the main problem with it. There are other, more civilized systems to deal with debtors that are unable to pay. It is regulated, but does anyone here really think that the Empire gives a shit if a couple of thousand imperial slaves "disappear in a mining accident" and show up in one of Archon DeLaines kitchens as ingredients because some minor noble from the imperial periphery has cash flow problems?
Both political systems are greatly flawed and at the same time so ideologically different that you can still argue about them in a meaningful way.
15 Mar 2020, 5:23pm
Rebecca HailAs for the wage slavery. There is no such thing. Depending on a job does not equal slavery in the least. Your basic human rights aren't rendered ineffective by that. You retain freedom of movement, freedom to choose your employer, freedom to voice your opinion, you're not the property of another human. If your own circumstances do not allow you to do any of that, it won't become slavery.
Imperial slavery on the other hand actively renders those basic human rights ineffective, that's the main problem with it. There are other, more civilized systems to deal with debtors that are unable to pay. It is regulated, but does anyone here really think that the Empire gives a shit if a couple of thousand imperial slaves "disappear in a mining accident" and show up in one of Archon DeLaines kitchens as ingredients because some minor noble from the imperial periphery has cash flow problems?
Both political systems are greatly flawed and at the same time so ideologically different that you can still argue about them in a meaningful way.
From the perspective of a PF member those don't seem all that different. They're both less freedom than we enjoy.
15 Mar 2020, 5:26pm
Synthya Wylder[...]slaves equating to voluntary indentured servitude which someone can work themselves out of debt[...]
You basically just described the difference between Imperial slavery (which is legal in most Imperial systems) and "unchecked" slavery, which is also illegal inside the Empire.
The system of dignitas I mentioned above demands of slave owners to treat their slaves well, which means providing them housing, clothing and everything else they might need on a level that would be befitting of an Imperial citizen (the lowest caste of free people inside the Empire). There's even the ISA which is basically the government's office to ensure that slaves are treated well and if necessary get the help they need to eventually get sold (training, healthcare, etc.)
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I found a story on Reddit the other day that imo describes the system quite well and also answers the question all of us have about a certain... lets call it "application for slaves". Yes, I know it's fan fiction and not necessarily canon. But I can totally see Imperial slaves being used like described in this story, the whole procedure being more handled like the slave is working as a courtesan then being treated like a cheap hooker or breathing sex-toy.
15 Mar 2020, 5:29pm
15 Mar 2020, 5:34pm
15 Mar 2020, 5:37pm
Isaiah EvansonSlavery is slavery. If you are subservient to another person, no matter how good you may have it, you're still subject to their whims.
This is why Aisling Duval is an anomaly among Imperials. She wants to abolish slavery within the Empire, and beyond if possible.
15 Mar 2020, 5:51pm
Jason FrimantleIsaiah EvansonSlavery is slavery. If you are subservient to another person, no matter how good you may have it, you're still subject to their whims.
This is why Aisling Duval is an anomaly among Imperials. She wants to abolish slavery within the Empire, and beyond if possible.
I think you're missing his point. Even if Aisling managed to abolish slavery people would still be subservient. Sure, it might be better than what came before, but it's still far from the ideal.
Besides, the lore paints Aisling as a shallow, media-manipulating opportunist. I don't think for an instance she really believes her own bullshit.
15 Mar 2020, 5:52pm
John Montag
From the perspective of a PF member those don't seem all that different. They're both less freedom than we enjoy.
Obviously, but that's not what I'm arguing.
15 Mar 2020, 5:54pm
Isaiah EvansonSlavery is slavery. If you are subservient to another person, no matter how good you may have it, you're still subject to their whims.
But, I think that's the difference to which Amata Lirein refers... Imperial 'slavery' (appears, afaik, going by what I've read in the basic Lore Codex) is a voluntary affair, which afaik, is equivalent to 'indentured servants'; during the early days of the U.S., many immigrants paid there way from wherever they came from by a contractual agreement, & once that was concluded, went about their way as free as any other. I guess there may have been some who looked down on such a thing, but IMO is was both practical & equitable.
I only commented on the differences I mentioned earlier, based to the largest extent, what I've read of the different factions in the CODEX. I admit, still being a bit confused regarding the differences between Imperial & Empire. I guess I need to refresh my memory & spend some more time reading the details of all the different groups within each.
John MontagHow can a system demand slaves be treated well while at the same time pressing them into sex work?
By requiring certain safeguards be in place regarding their safety, treatment, health & well-being, I'd imagine. Not that it's a perfect analogy by any means, but in some way to varying degrees, how a 'pimp' or a 'madam' maintains some standard of care for those in their employ.
15 Mar 2020, 6:06pm
Regarding "sex-work": I used the word "courtesan" for a reason. With all the emphasis the lore puts on Imperials valueing honor and this extending to their treatment of slaves I do not see it being forced. The way I understand the subject of Imperial slavery as described on the E:D wiki it works more like this:
You sell yourself into slavery to be able to pay a debt. From this point on you're placed under the care of the ISA who is tasked to teach you all the necessary skills you need to be able to work off your debt. They train you and even help you with other issues (health, etc.) you might have to pick up the line of work you choose, because:
E:D wikiImperial slaves are guaranteed basic human rights and may exercise free will and self-determination, but still have substantially less freedom than regular Imperial citizens.
(Source)
It could be fair to assume that the line of work/services you are willing to provide as a slave dictates on how long your time as a slave will last. So I kinda find it hard to believe that a slave who is unwilling to offer their services as a courtesan will be forced into it, but I can imagine it being incentivised.