Elite: Lore
09 Sep 2020, 12:33pm
Looks like you're not happy.. What is your boggle? You cant be professional and answer questions on topic now?? Look.. The comments are deleted... Whats your problem? Hm?
Arty what is this? A conspiracy of rubbish that has no limits now?? Please just one of you answer the question. I already counted you out of the conversation @rebecca but no, you only surface to advocate your views on me personally and avoid the topic completely?? really you're just being a sour poes about everything.
What gives you the right to be so venomous now..
(Hmm contemplative you are and completely savage.. I think you're about 30... Divorced and maybe a single mom with no one interested)
Ok I can just as well turn around and bash your character with baseless assumptions like that.. (I'm just using this as an example so its clear that its not appropriate to attack someone personally like that.)
Please stay on topic and answer the question if you cant, please keep your silence.
@Artie seems to have a double standard about what "personal attack" means. I asked you to out line it so were on the same page.. But here we are, don't act like I didn't because the comments are deleted.
I am willing to apologize.. But I wont apologize to a double standard.
09 Sep 2020, 1:08pm
There is the ancient maxim which goes something like this (paraphrasing, I'm going by memory here):
'When either or any member in a discussion ceases to direct their point to the topic itself, & instead directs their focus on 1 or more members personally, that would result in an implied admission of conceding their point, in that, their argument in support of their point is not valid or strong enough & that they concede.'
In other, simpler terms, 1nce the focus is directed at another personally & away from the actual topic, it is an admission to concede that their point was invalid &/ their argument not strong enough.
I never got to read the deleted comments, but I gather that they weren't topic-focused or constructive (& my apologies for including all those of the related but contextual posts).
09 Sep 2020, 2:43pm
But I was asking questions and stated some facts supporting my views. I asked questions about slavery and all that was commented was personal standards by the others. I'ts not a crime nor is it against the law to want the questions answered. nore to debate the context of game lore in relation to reality. like for instance... "In Elite is slavery only cruel?" That's a fairly yes or no question...Iit requires base knowledge of the games lore and someone who knows with the will to confirm it..
And I didn't get that.
And you may say calling me out is one thing but like i made my point a few times over in previous texts (now deleted) calling them out back in the same condescending manner doesn't seem to be enjoyed.
look at rebecca's reactions and responses... Resonable?
I concede nothing because NONE of you right now, even after the whole conversation has been removed, are answering the questions about slavery.. Well you're all apparently experts.
Why cant you fresh observer stay on topic and answer the questions at hand that are directly dressed to ARTY. Or are you an English expert and want to turn me into an Englishman too??
Hmm? No, instead you talk of "conceding" and this isn't an argument over whose rite or wrong.. Saka and I were talking about slavery and apparently EVERYONE decided to become an expert in etiquette and English grammar.
No this is a search for the truth about slavery in game terms as it relates to Saka's original statement about Elite is "hiding controversy in the story line revolving around slavery.".
And you're choosing now to come out and brief me on etiquette again after Atrie already addressed the situation with us and removed everything relevant to the sanctioned conversation. Unless your brain is the recycling bin and all those messages are still stored up in there..
Im sure that you were not present in the overall conversation and anything you have to say about it now has no context.. If you guys want to be so contemplative and have so many double standards then I'm wasting my time trying to clarify the issue.. Your agenda and narrative are not conducive of storytelling or information sharing about the game if this is how you deal with questions or handle adequate information...
All of you big players could have answered the questions and nothing had to go the way they did with your double standards... A simple fact about the game lore surrounding slavery could have turned this into a very different conversation.. But you ALL chose contempt and to withhold information and let this play out the way it did...
So I accept conceding. You just don't know the answers or don't want to share it because its easy to point delete and have fun with double stander's and waste time..
lecturing me about being on topic is just blind ok... I've asked the questions if you have no relevant answers you don't HAVE to say anything.. =) Specially if you don't know anything about it. In that position you can only ask a questions.. You don't need to be an Englishmen to follow blind logic.
So I'm asking you whats your boggle dear?? @Synthya
09 Sep 2020, 3:00pm
HultharenOk what nation buys and openly trades in slaves? Im not talking about human trafficking and that type of thing.. I'm talking about slavery in the context that it exists in the game and its relation to reality.
Well, nowadays it's not really the state that buys and sellls slaves, rather they allow systems in which private citizens or their companies are allowed to "indenture" workers. Most of these countries are middle eastern. There has been a big controversy in Qatar recently where this isn't being addressed with the World Cup stadia being built there.
You say you're not talking about human trafficking just what exists in the game, but indentured servitude exists in the game and a lot of people trafficking is often that.
But this response is off topic as Sakashiro's original (and valid as far as I can see) point was that there should be a punishment for jettisoning Imperial slaves if the lore is correct. I agree, or the truth is that they're just a commodity like regular slaves and it's all propaganda by the Empire. Either way, it's a good point.
09 Sep 2020, 3:10pm
Hultharen.....
And you're choosing now to come out and brief me on etiquette again after Atrie already addressed the situation with us and removed everything relevant to the sanctioned conversation. Unless your brain is the recycling bin and all those messages are still stored up in there......
The posts containing insults of other posters are never relevant for any reasonable discussion. I will say it plainly and even more clearly - if do you will try to insult other posters here, belittling their opinions by invalid arguments ad hominem or you will be simply behaving like a classic example of internet discussion troll, I will remove all posts I will deem fit. Feel free to discuss here, as I said before, but discuss constructively and politely. I would also like to remind that this thread is intended for the ELITE LORE DISCUSSION and not for anything else like who stepped on anybody's toe or whatever...
09 Sep 2020, 3:13pm
You started with your initial post, which was terribly formatted (one massive block of text) and full of condescending statements towards other posters in this thread. Not even mentioning here that you don't even try to argue on the same level as all other posters, you tried from the start to talk down to everyone else here or you trying to insert political statements randomly into posts (liberal and socialist values burning our civilization down, communist censoring, communist whiplash, etc).
I made a little jab against your terrible formatting and Artie removed your post due to the aforementioned reasons of being terribly formatted and full of condescending statements.
You complained about your post being removed with a post, so I answered you again to clarify the reasons as to why your post was removed in the first place.
And since then you've felt the constant need throughout all your posts to either single me out or belittle me (i. E. if I can't read your post I should read something easier like twilight or "Here's a nappy for you").
That proceeded to the point where Artie decided to delete all the posts related to that conversation, for the better imo, and in the very next post you try to single me out and belittle me again ("haha its leaking, points at Rebecca"). Why do you do that? I didn't respond once to any of your points about slavery because I'm not willing to discuss them with you. You could've just stopped there, posted something directed at the general population of the thread.
It doesn't seem like anything of what Artie said made it through to you.
So when I say that you're an entitled hypocrite, I mean that that is how you appear to me. You can take that as feedback on your style of writing posts.
And with that I'm done with you, you may declare yourself victor of a discussion we never had for all I care. This is going to be my last post regarding that matter as I do not wish to derail this thread even more.
09 Sep 2020, 3:39pm
I get that, and see your point. I'd also like to add that indenturing yourself is a choice. I don't see any "Rescue trafficked citizen" before they bought and become property of the state missions. So I'm not too sure if that's what you mean.
But there are liberation missions and I think that covers the gap at least in terms of the limits at which FDev are willing to go with that.. I'd also add that the empire is not just slaving everyone, and my point earlier about slavery is that its a constructive tool in the face of ultimate death once conquered.. So it depends I guess on your moral standing on the issue in that context. My point is that slavery not entirely a bad thing and the game lore kinda reflects that but the "movement" kinda divides the facts a little because of the whole propaganda issue. Is it true, is it not true? You know the regular problem with romantic propaganda..
I personally don't think that dumping imperial slaves is a moral thing to do even "regular slaves," in game. What reason would you Have to do it? I agree that there should be a punishment for murder.. But like what are they going to do? Cr400 fine?? "Loitering is punishable by death" guys.. I'm sure you all loiter in real life... So with laws like that, humanity will kill itself out unless death has another twist in the technological future..
Lets be honest now.. What's the lore around death in the game. Why do we get that second chance and pay insurance?
This seems off topic but it carries grate significance in a future point. Dose anyone know the story of death in Elite and how we get that second chance in terms of lore?
Thank you for your answer. It's nice to not be treated with contempt, and actually have a discussion. "Oyey Belta Lawda"
09 Sep 2020, 3:41pm
ArtieHultharen.....
And you're choosing now to come out and brief me on etiquette again after Atrie already addressed the situation with us and removed everything relevant to the sanctioned conversation. Unless your brain is the recycling bin and all those messages are still stored up in there......
The posts containing insults of other posters are never relevant for any reasonable discussion. I will say it plainly and even more clearly - if do you will try to insult other posters here, belittling their opinions by invalid arguments ad hominem or you will be simply behaving like a classic example of internet discussion troll, I will remove all posts I will deem fit. Feel free to discuss here, as I said before, but discuss constructively and politely. I would also like to remind that this thread is intended for the ELITE LORE DISCUSSION and not for anything else like who stepped on anybody's toe or whatever...
Ok, show me the "insult" please @Artie
09 Sep 2020, 3:52pm
If that's insulting then you're very sensitive and there is nothing i can do about that... I can't apologize because that's what you think about what I said pending your perception, its not how I meant it. In English terms it only has meaning by your choice..
Ok for English speakers you're all making quite a few "errors" yourself, so much so that getting information from you guys is a problem.. (The tone is not in contempt and I am sincere about this statement in the purest way) Please remove your sensitivity from the equation and stop knit picking like rebecca.. Ok, I've had enough of peoples double standards today. =) you have the power to answer my questions and this is what you choose.
Why?
09 Sep 2020, 4:01pm
History is written by the victors. It is in their interest to appear just and honourable. I believe this is why the Empire portray itself as honourable and luxurious. I think this is all true - for the wealthy. The rest is propaganda.
My basis for this belief is several hints, but no direct evidence.
In the article about Imperial Citizens, they mention that there are over 1.7 trillion citizens as of 3304. They also mention that citizens are above slaves, and that slaves and kids of citizens have to apply a citizen petition to become a citizen themselves. For kids, this is just a formality as they turn 21. There is no mention of how it is for slaves. The interesting facts here are that 1.7 trillion citizens are also the population of the Empire. This tells us that the slaves are not counted as part of the population. It also tell us that it's not trivial to become a citizen. If it was, the slaves would be mentioned alongside the kids.
Next we come to the article of the Empire. There it's stated that the Empire is opposed to Robotics, AI, and that Imperial slaves perform tasks that is done by -machinery- in most other parts of the galaxy. Machinery? Hold on there... Do you know what's in this day and age mostly done by machinery? Food, clothes, cellphones, cars, chemicals... The implication is that most automation in the rest of the galaxy is performed by slaves in the empire. If we're conservative and say that machinery isn't better and can perform more widespread tasks than now, and that the Empire still use mechanical aids (such as cranes, forklifts etc), the implication is that most working class people of today would have to be slaves. If you're middle class and above with an office job, you're lucky. If you're working class (restaurants, construction, factory, laboratory etc), well tough luck, you would be a slave in the Empire.
I don't know how large part of the population today is working class, but let's throw some balls to the wall and guess 20%. That make it so that to support the Imperial way of life, they would need in the ballpark of 400 billion slaves. Maybe that's too much? Maybe only 5% is needed. That's about 100 billion people, and represent a population in the same order as unemployment figures. You don't become unemployment in the empire: you become a slave.
The Imperial Citizens need their slaves to support their way of life. Sure, they could replace them with automation and machinery for production, but they're also used as servants. Let's ignore the last part for now. How do you become a slave? You "volunteer" to avoid debt you can't pay back. How would you get in debt? Funny you should ask; who benefit from slavery and need them for their way of life? The wealthy. The property owners, the factory owners etc. Is it a far stretch to think that the Empire is designed such that those of lower standing can be easily pushed into debt? I don't think so.
The same article also mentions a "dark underbelly" of slavery. If it was all perfectly honourable, why would it be called that? Sure, you provide for the slaves. But they have no choice but to perform manual labour, for the good of the Empire. An honour, really. Right?
09 Sep 2020, 4:04pm
HultharenLets be honest now.. What's the lore around death in the game. Why do we get that second chance and pay insurance?
Because there are escape pods in both the lore and the game. No contradiction there.
09 Sep 2020, 4:07pm
Renraiku, how do we discuss topics without contradiction and fact checking and researching and comparing data and experience without any type of friction involved?? Because the moment you call someone out and its not YOU they delete the comment and lambast you with personal attacks on the grounds that "its against etiquette". rebecca can happily directly call me things in the most rude way but I must remain like a slave and just take that... Sorry I don't care who you are.. Being that level of savage and having no disciplinary action like that which was exacted on me is a double standard.
If you see it differently that's ok.. But for me its not.
09 Sep 2020, 4:20pm
I was just wandering if its ok to have some gaps to fill with research and interpretation.. As for what you said earlier, I don't think Fdev is hiding controversy in game law surrounding slavery.