Elite: Lore

Amata Lirein
08 Sep 2020, 12:19pm
SakashiroFrom Galnet (emphasis mine):
Under Imperial law, citizens are not permitted to sell their Imperial Slaves for service to non-Imperial citizens, nor are they allowed to sell Imperial Slaves on worlds outside of Imperial space. Those found breaking the law run the risk of being forced into service themselves


Forced into voluntary slavery!


"Being forced into service themselves" means in this instance that those who abuse Imperial slaves may be punished by a court to slavery themselves. It's meant as a punishment and deterrent to make sure slaves do not get abused.
Amata Lirein
08 Sep 2020, 12:22pm
Challenge^^
Considering the Imperial culture of tiered levels of social status, I would think slavery would be the term; placing them just below the level of peons, drones, or whatever they call the lower tier of working-class citizens. And I doubt all the sales are voluntary. Some may volunteer to work off debt, it would also work nicely to put those who would defy the upper stratum in their place.


The social structure of the Empire, starting with the most powerful:

  • Emperor
  • Senators
  • Patrons
  • Clients
  • Citizens
  • Slaves
Jubei Himura
08 Sep 2020, 9:58pm
This is a good conversation.

AND it is a bit of a continual sore spot because the game mechanics do not support the lore (because you can sell Imperial Slaves to just about anyone) and its a heated topic regardless.

This will be forever debated and everyone will have their own headcanon on the subject. That's quite alright.
User225267
08 Sep 2020, 10:03pm
If anything, on the paper "Imperial Slavery" is better than being low tier or even jobless in the Federation, given the latter is basically "work hard or die".  Of course Senators can mistreat their Imperial Slaves as they are not abode by the law, but I am pretty much sure they wouldn't cross the line too much because their life - like post Nova Imperium situation had shown - is always at the edge of a very sharp knife that is Emperor. Plus do take into consideration you are NOT Imperial Slave 24/7, you are given housing, pocket money and food.


While I understand Zachary Hudson's position on the social benefits given his ideology - he was lucky out of several thousand, if not millions, people to make it out of severe poverty. And I can assure you that such an idea of people to "stop whining and get a job or change it" has a very fatal crash test with reality. Given my own experience, it's not easy to break the wall on the [broken] job market where re-qualification sometimes is out of question (especially if you are a person who spent over a decade to become well-versed in one specific job). For the reference, I has been targeting for the position that has over 11 thousand vacant spots in the province alone - yet I still (proverbially) knock at the job's office door and my daily ritual starts with a resume or two sent towards various employees - not only from my own field but also towards "sister" fields, mind me.

The only money I got so far is from doing short story commissions while I still have to obey a limit due to some law regulation, because if I cross a such - I lose unemployment status which provides free healthcare and end up being forced to pay business healthcare package as actual business and not just "ad hoc freelancing". Healthcare alone would eat between 90-120% of the money I usually earn through commissions. And I repeat: healthcare alone.

If such a thing happens in a country with high economical stability - now imagine what happens in the Federation that has a lot of issues with its own decentralized yet still monopolized economy.

Last edit: 08 Sep 2020, 10:17pm
User225267
09 Sep 2020, 12:43am
It's not about slavery as slavery, but actual issue of Elite: Dangerous / FDev calling it "Imperial Slavery" for gameplay reasons in order to point out only Empire wants to see it as right - while it is condemned by the rest. Also, there's yet another reason: Roman (Debt) Slavery, which isn't the slavery we understand through prism of chains and 19th Century abolitionist movements. Roman (Debt) Slavery was something normal for Romans and you were technically untouchable while being subject to such a practice, although with obvious exceptions of severe mistreatment that introduced even more strict limitations and safety laws.


In the end, as for the term, is pretty much like these Dictatorship faction reps screaming "Long Live The Regime" in game.  No dictatorship would ever call itself, or their actions, regime.
Sakashiro
09 Sep 2020, 4:54am
Oh wow, that escalated quickly. I'm sorry for bringing up the topic.

I don't have a problem with slavery in games. It's just the obvious disconnect between this game and its own lore that bugs me and makes me wonder why they chose to do it that way. To me it looks like they're using the lore to avoid controversy. Because every detail about Imperial slavery – the transport of people in cargo canisters, the body sculpting shops in training facilities, the existence of abolitionist movements (including one whose leader was born into slavery), the fact that it's illegal everywhere else – suggests it is not just indentured servitude.

It's a bit like claiming that the thralls in Conan Exiles aren't actually slaves.
PapatangomikE61
09 Sep 2020, 6:44am
When reality gets conflated with gameplay. My real name is Arthur Morgan and I have a horse named Roach., I live in Simcity with a woman named Zelda.
Creamy Goodness III
09 Sep 2020, 7:01am
You stole my horse!
User170387
09 Sep 2020, 8:01am
Well all your doing is referring to fictional references for the context of slavery.. And that is so far from the truth you might as well imagine the rest and call it "your truth".. Ok. Elite has an empire that takes slaves as substitute for death or incarceration.. Think about it economically first. The reason they would do something like that is to enrich their workforce. Slaves have to be functional people who are professional and skilled and those who are not skilled have the forced opportunity to learn something and serve their masters with loyalty.

That's how imperialism works when it comes to slavery.. lets take the Romans as an example.. They had 3 servile wars where slaves rebelled against the cruelty of their masters. But it wasn't the same cruelty each time. no. The Romans enacted policies and laws to protect and educate their slaves.. This process actually refined the holding of slaves as a much more humane practice so much so that you could work your depts off by indentured servitude, so you were not going to be homeless and destitute, you could work your way into becoming a citizen of the Roman republic as a slave, you were payed for your work as a slave too.

There are records of slaves and their children rising into grate houses. The records are literally written in stone on monuments made by the Roman Empire to honor the slaves that worked to become citizens of the republic... so yeah... your perception of slavery is really really distorted in terms of game logic, and in terms of what it meant to be a slave and what commitment it demanded from the individual.

With a galaxy as large as ours in elite the empire cannot sell imperial slaves to just anyone.. in that you are wrong. they are illegal in the other powers systems. their conquests and territory gains come with those who resist.. so instead of facing a gorilla war on occupied territory those who resisted are taken and sold into slavery as a mercy.. because what do you have to do with gorilla forces once you get in contact with them? you HAVE to shoot them dead because the choice is them or you by ideal.. at that stage there is no time for options and morality.. because the ideals are set and directly oppose each-other.. that is also the other side to slavery, and why its a mercy because it takes them away from that power and they can be conditioned into the imperial way of life, in stead of turning the place into a war-zone and a blood bath that the survivors will never be able to reach the glory they once had before the conflict began. we see lots of historical accounts where this has happened. like the battles of Carthage in Roman times.

Lets look at the slavery laws of the Judaic people who lived in Judea before the Persians came and conquering them into slavery... As a slave your rights were as follows. You have the right to shelter, you have the right to sustenance, you had the right to cloths and an education. you had the right to practice your culture in privet. your indentured servitude was a period of 14 years, after that you had to be set free. if you had children with a spouse in your service time they were educated clothed fed same as you.. There are many more finite bylaws that existed. But this core understanding of human needs made keeping slaves a very strict profession. if you were keeping slaves inhumanely you were put into slavery yourself. in effect not everyone could keep slaves and provide for them.. Only people who could afford their living and educating costs could hold them.

There are other instances in the Sumerian empire and the Greek city states also had their version of slavery two different periods two different civilizations.... These civilizations lasted longer than our modern age today. so with the setting of elites universe having real time connections to humanity's past i see the imperial slave issue as a refined modernized version of laws and policies that protect and enable the slaves to be protected from abuse so that they can't turn their consciences against them. There is nothing I've personally seen in-game about the slaves being treated overly cruel beyond the propaganda spread by the movement.

I don't know everything about elite but slavery.. I think we have a misguided understanding of the term today about it because no one in our generation has actually been one.. ever. =) So the context has been lost through fictional portrayals of it as baseless and cruel and evil in nature.. This is far from the truth and yes you can argue that slavery might be one of elites weakest points but in truth the information is there in the context it was meant so we can have these meaningful conversations. and investigate it in character.. not whine about it because you don't understand it. That major disconnect is not elites lack of story telling and game law.. It's the lack of knowledge surrounding slavery in real life that has seemed to move you to the insinuation that "elite is using slavery to cover up controversy." which is farther from the truth in a fictional story... and that is why I wrote what I did..

Come hunt me down in the galaxy if its THAT much of a difference in ideal. But someone has to tell the truth and not pander on to someone else's delusions.
Sakashiro
09 Sep 2020, 8:31am
Well, slavery meant different things in different times and different places. No one is denying that. But if Elite's Imperial slavery is inspired by the Roman Empire, the game should reflect that. I'm not against one or the other, I just wish there was more consistency. Elite's lore seems to be mixing everything up, to the point of contradicting itself.
Wulthus
09 Sep 2020, 10:13am
I think we have a misguided understanding of the term today about it because no one in our generation has actually been one.. ever. =) So the context has been lost through fictional portrayals of it as baseless and cruel and evil in nature..


That's a pretty big claim.

http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/slavery-today
Artie
09 Sep 2020, 11:04am
Alright, apparently my point about how to discuss politely and not insulting anybody was not understood. I have removed all post not relevant to the lore discussion (my apologies, Beccy and Sakashiro for removing also yours - it has nothing to do with your tone, it just lose the context ).

Now let's continue with the lore discussion in this thread and nothing else, please.
Rebecca Hail
09 Sep 2020, 11:17am
Thanks to my infinite generosity, I've decided to forgive you, Artie.
User170387
09 Sep 2020, 11:48am
Wulthus
I think we have a misguided understanding of the term today about it because no one in our generation has actually been one.. ever. =) So the context has been lost through fictional portrayals of it as baseless and cruel and evil in nature..



That's a pretty big claim.

http://www.endslaverynow.org/learn/slavery-today



Ok what nation buys and openly trades in slaves? Im not talking about human trafficking and that type of thing.. I'm talking about slavery in the context that it exists in the game and its relation to reality. I wanted saka and rebbecca to clarify in what context it is present and like I expressed my thoughts on it before it got deleted, I explained from a military and economic stand point with historic scenarios the reason slaves were taken and why they were not treated like the fictional stories of today portray slavery in general.

Instead I got more of a mouthful of grammar and spacing and sideways comments about appropriate English structuring.. But I still have no feedback.. Only a bunch of comments deleted and your input here in relation to that which has no context and no relatable or plausible relation to in game mechanics surrounding slavery in game terms... =)

So which one of you guys is going to ACTUALLY answer this for us? rebecca is out. sask is out, has no clue even though she was moaning for answers.. Anyone else?? Or is everyone in a huff because they cant stay on topic and just love being English teaches and so on?
Sakashiro
09 Sep 2020, 11:55am
The other day I read that in some earlier Elite game, if you loaded slaves into your cargo hold and forgot to add some sort of life support module, you'd arrive at your destination with a cargo load of fertilizer.

Now that is some sick sense of humor right there.

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