Elite: Lore

Sakashiro
09 Sep 2020, 5:08pm
HultharenEscape pods, hmm, you're rite.. But like blowing up in your SRV or fighter.. Hmm I'm not too sure you got my point though. =) Escape pods are a little loopy when it comes to credible escape from death. Because if you die exploring whose coming to get you and bring you back and all that...

I was just wandering if its ok to have some gaps to fill with research and interpretation.. As for what you said earlier, I don't think Fdev is hiding controversy in game law surrounding slavery.

A lot of pilots in Elite do not get rescued. But you can't play any of those. They are NPCs. It's a bit like those single-player games where you always end up as the chosen one, the last survivor, the lucky winner, the main hero. The fact that you happen to play a central role in the lore doesn't make the lore inconsistent.

Gaps to fill are OK. Role play and fan fiction are all about filling those gaps. But if the lore is contradicting itself, you have to ignore one part or the other to end up with a story that makes sense. Is it a big deal? Probably not. But the question why a game still has inconsistent lore after 36 years is a valid one, as there was plenty of time to fix it with a retcon.
Artie
09 Sep 2020, 5:14pm
Hultharen: Alright, apparently, you are not willing to let it go and continue discussion JUST AND ONLY on the lore (without involving some personally perceived "injustice"). I will politely ask you for the last time - please, keep this discussion on the Elite lore and do not solve anything else here. Sure, you have a right to write anything here. We however have no obligation to read it and I have no obligation to keep it. My site, my rules, deal with that.

There are many commanders I deeply value their opinions even I may not agree with them and I hope you may become one of them. On the other hand, I have no issue to simply kick out troublemakers bringing nothing to the community here, rather the opposite. I hope that I made myself very clear.
Aleksander Majjam
09 Sep 2020, 5:24pm
Sakashiro
HultharenEscape pods, hmm, you're rite.. But like blowing up in your SRV or fighter.. Hmm I'm not too sure you got my point though. =) Escape pods are a little loopy when it comes to credible escape from death. Because if you die exploring whose coming to get you and bring you back and all that...

I was just wandering if its ok to have some gaps to fill with research and interpretation.. As for what you said earlier, I don't think Fdev is hiding controversy in game law surrounding slavery.


A lot of pilots in Elite do not get rescued. But you can't play any of those. They are NPCs. It's a bit like those single-player games where you always end up as the chosen one, the last survivor, the lucky winner, the main hero. The fact that you happen to play a central role in the lore doesn't make the lore inconsistent.

Gaps to fill are OK. Role play and fan fiction are all about filling those gaps. But if the lore is contradicting itself, you have to ignore one part or the other to end up with a story that makes sense. Is it a big deal? Probably not. But the question why a game still has inconsistent lore after 36 years is a valid one, as there was plenty of time to fix it with a retcon.


In the past where people were being heavily critiqued on lore in their RP's on here as well as being questioned on viable "real-world" scenarios in science fiction, I'll always be of mind that the story comes first and foremost. Lore and practicality are only suggestions.

On that note, one day I'll actually post.
A C Ender
09 Sep 2020, 6:32pm
HultharenIndeed, Do you have any links to your Article?


Here are some links to the articles, and direct quotes from them;

Empire
The Empire is less technologically dependent than the Federation, choosing to keep and employ slaves for the work which machines would usually perform in other parts of the universe. The Empire is also a proponent of human cloning rather than robotics.

Imperial Citizen
An Imperial Citizen is the status of a person recognized under Imperial Law as being a legal member of the Empire. This is a social class above Imperial Slave. Their interests are represented by a Client.[1] The Empire has over 1.7 trillion citizens as of 3304 CE.

An Imperial Citizen can file a petition to their Client. A citizen petition is where a slave or child of a Citizen, or even a foreigner, petitions to become an Imperial Citizen. For children this is a fairly informal process, which is really a coming-of-age party with a brief ceremony at the start, which happens when they reach 21 years old.

Here are a few more articles I didn't have time to comment on in my first post too;
Imperial Slave Association
The ISA operates slave training facilities in imperial space. The purpose is to train an unregulated workforce of slaves up to an appropriately imperial standard. It sets an example for the rest of the galaxy. It features skill implantation terminals, body sculpting shops, ISA-certified retraining regime, the best trainers and materials, modern technology etc. On 1 March 3301, another slave training academy was opened aboard Lagerkvist Gateway in the Synteini system.
Clearly the imperial standard is to change peoples bodies to suit their vanity. It's implied that the imperial standard is one where the body is sculpted, or such a facility wouldn't be offered. Oh, it may be "optional" on paper... But what consequence do you think it have if you opt-out? You will probably be opting for a dirty hard job out of sight by doing so.

Slavery
Under Imperial law, citizens are not permitted to sell their Imperial Slaves for service to non-Imperial citizens, nor are they allowed to sell Imperial Slaves on worlds outside of Imperial space. Those found breaking the law run the risk of being forced into service themselves, although in reality Imperial frontier security services tend to turn a blind eye to the practice.

From the last article, we also have this interesting part:
The charitable organization Stop Slavery Stupid opposes slavery in the Empire. It's supported by Aisling Duval. On 19 Jan 3304, Aisling said "Illegal slavery is an abhorrent practice that negates its victim's fundamental human rights. The amoral profiteers operating in Guuguyni must be stopped."
Note how the supposedly righteous "Imperial against slavery" explicitly stated that illegal slavery is abhorrent practise. She clearly doesn't feel the same about legal, as she then would simply have stated "slavery". It's just a show to win political points.


These are all hints to me that the slavery in the Empire is not an actual "indented servitude". I believe that a large part of the (not actually accounted for) population is forced or trapped in debt to perform the tasks that the Empire require performing to maintain their power position. Another comment on that is that the very existence of a cheap underclass virtually guarantee that those lacking wealth or resources for education etc will be trapped into accepting slavery. This is why prison workers are not allowed to perform work competing with other work, as there is no way a free citizen can maintain living expenses at the level of cost a prisoner can work for. By having a widespread class of people working for a very low cost, you make manual and low-qualified labour unable to compete, and will get into debt due to lack of available work. And guess what, then they will be "cared for"... as "voluntary" slaves. Did they choose this outcome, or are the rich and powerful using them to maintain status quo? I'll let you judge on that... But I see no reason to believe the former. They did not choose. They're not free.
User170387
09 Sep 2020, 7:21pm
Thank you @Ender. =) In reality that is All we needed.. You're a life saver mate.. See a Saka? This is what I was actually talking about in principal. The game is stretching the concept with its own agenda. I like that. The historic comparisons are there to guide us through the modal of how the system works.

Thank you for answering most of my questions. =) I'm satisfied with how things turned out. The gaps are just a little more full now. Its time for imagination to do the rest. =)

The only thing I can say against your last statement is that imperial ships are priced above all others. Which means that imperial labor gets payed pretty well, why else would it be so much just for cutter. Almost double the price of Anaconda.. See as I pointed out before in real time historic accounts of slavery.. That treating your slaves badly in general always leads to a rebellion.. This is predictable.. So I doubt that an imperial state can afford over half the workforce in chains or even a quarter..

look at it economically again.. If you're in chains and jerked around and forced to do everything that you have to do with pain or suffering.. Are you going to build ships that fancy and in the allotted time? Are you going to follow the plans and make each join seamless? No.. Because you're not involved with your work... This hints to me that whether you're opposed to slavery or not, that moral judgement puts you on what side of the power spectrum you are..

So baring that in mind the idea that you're a slave being jerked around against your will doing manual labor day in day out... With the price on those imperial ships I think its better to assume that the propaganda is only there because regime change brings a dynamic back into the picture adding another fold to the story..

Propaganda is present only when someone with power wants something changed and they want to do it by motivating people to pick up a cause.. Which leads me to believe that its largely a half truth and isn't completely factual.. the subtle hints are there for conversations like this to debate.. =)

I remember that was a community goal or some such. It was on Galnet for sure. =) Aahh the good old days haha.
Synthya Wylder
09 Sep 2020, 7:26pm
Hope does spring eternal.
Descartes
09 Sep 2020, 7:57pm
Synthya WylderHope does spring eternal.


So does new Imperialism, Empire builders, Colonialists, Dictators, Tyrants...
Razoredg
09 Sep 2020, 7:58pm
I seem to remember a while back maybe a community goal or a galnet article about someone who freed a bunch of imperial slaves and set them up on some planet....they we NOT grateful because when they were indentured they at least were well cared for and were working to clear a debt or somethings....imperial slavery, as I understand it, is not a life long sentence....its a period of indentured servitude. At least thats how I remember it...sorry for butting in but didnt see that episode mentioned....
Sakashiro
09 Sep 2020, 8:20pm
A C EnderThese are all hints to me that the slavery in the Empire is not an actual "indented servitude".

HultharenThank you @Ender. =) In reality that is All we needed.. You're a life saver mate.. See a Saka? This is what I was actually talking about in principal. The game is stretching the concept with its own agenda.

I wouldn't blame you for not knowing this, but Ender's interpretation is identical with the one I chose as a starting point for my character's story. Yet, it's not the official position of FDev. Here's a quote from their Elite Dangerous Newsletter #22:
The Empire values both status and honour very highly indeed. So whilst it is acceptable to flaunt wealth, treating people well is a question of honour – and this includes slaves. Having an unpaid debt is seen as utterly dishonourable – an honourable Imperial citizen would sell themselves into slavery to clear a debt they couldn’t otherwise clear.

This is not an in-game Galnet news release by some Imperial propaganda mouthpiece, mind you. This is FDev telling us in no uncertain terms what Imperial slavery is. Any interpretation to the contrary is outside the lore.
A C Ender
09 Sep 2020, 8:45pm
The only cost of a human doing something is however much they cost to be content doing the labour. A machine cost whatever the manufacturing cost is. When I was doing military service, I was payed about £6 ($10) a day. Would that have been enough to live an acceptable life on my own? Definitely not. But because food, clothes, and a place to stay was provided for, I could still live. I didn't need to spend any money to live. Neither does a slave. If the slaves come from a situation where they need to pay housing, food, clothes, commuting to a work paying minimal wage, they may barely make do. And then a family member get sick and they don't have the savings, so have to take a loan. Unfortunately, the family member is sick for a long time, so they lose income in addition to having pay back the debt. They cut down on food and stop buying new food, but it's not enough. They stop paying for heat, but it's still not enough. They start to fall back on rent. The debt is increasing, and they can't pay it back. But there's a solution.

"Become a slave, and we will forgive the debt".
"Work for 10 years, and you can get back on your feet"

That's the argument for the Empires way. That's what they pride themselves on. No (minimal) homelessness etc. But it comes at a cost. While a slave, you essentially work for free. Your labour will have produced vastly more wealth than the initial debt you "worked of". But because you work for essentially free, no -Citizen- could possibly compete with what it cost an employer to have you in his service. They would not be able to survive on that cost. The outcome? Anyone not born into the middle class or being blessed with with a mind for a valuable skill will be de facto be forced into slavery themselves. There will be no free working class, as they can't compete with the labour of slaves. Manual labour will all be done by slaves, the masters of whom will be able to undercut any contracts by every free citizen with ease. The cost of just sustaining additional life when you have wealth is minimal. Having someone in chains is superflous - the slaves have nothing better available. They got to keep their head down for a chance out at the end of their "contract". It's also more expensive to keep guards and security than to keep someone in debt. They know that if they try to escape and fail, they will be punished.

Isn't it curious how you nowhere can find anything on how long any contract is? My bet is that it's because the duration isn't measured in months, but years and even decades. It's all but mandatory communal work, but not for the rich and famous.

Here's another quote from the "Empire" article:
Its high living standards, outlandishly wealthy companies and sophisticated technology and design have made it an attractive place for the wealthy and famous to call home.
In todays society, do you think anyone could get rich without the assistance of machinery and automation in the supply chain? Replace that machinery with human labour, and you have the Empire. Now, given that they have "outlandishly wealthy companies" - it's a logical conclusion that the slaves are very cheap to run.
A C Ender
09 Sep 2020, 8:49pm
Sakashiro
A C EnderThese are all hints to me that the slavery in the Empire is not an actual "indented servitude".


HultharenThank you @Ender. =) In reality that is All we needed.. You're a life saver mate.. See a Saka? This is what I was actually talking about in principal. The game is stretching the concept with its own agenda.


I wouldn't blame you for not knowing this, but Ender's interpretation is identical with the one I chose as a starting point for my character's story. Yet, it's not the official position of FDev. Here's a quote from their Elite Dangerous Newsletter #22:
The Empire values both status and honour very highly indeed. So whilst it is acceptable to flaunt wealth, treating people well is a question of honour – and this includes slaves. Having an unpaid debt is seen as utterly dishonourable – an honourable Imperial citizen would sell themselves into slavery to clear a debt they couldn’t otherwise clear.


This is not an in-game Galnet news release by some Imperial propaganda mouthpiece, mind you. This is FDev telling us in no uncertain terms what Imperial slavery is. Any interpretation to the contrary is outside the lore.


I think you will enjoy my last post above. I try to explain how you can actually "treat people well" yet still have a system that by design keep a sizeable part of the population in "mandatory" servitude. You can choose something freely, because it's a way out of your shitty situation. But if that shitty situation is -caused- by the very system which "takes care" of you, can you really call it anything but oppressive?
Synthya Wylder
09 Sep 2020, 10:54pm
I can gather just why the likes of the Achilles, Sappho, etc. robotic units would not be welcome in the Empire.

Aside from, perhaps, the prestige if any of 'owning' slaves & the disruption in several ways of an already-long established system.

Or do I have it wrong?
User225267
09 Sep 2020, 11:11pm
SakashiroOh wow, that escalated quickly. I'm sorry for bringing up the topic.

I don't have a problem with slavery in games. It's just the obvious disconnect between this game and its own lore that bugs me and makes me wonder why they chose to do it that way. To me it looks like they're using the lore to avoid controversy. Because every detail about Imperial slavery – the transport of people in cargo canisters, the body sculpting shops in training facilities, the existence of abolitionist movements (including one whose leader was born into slavery), the fact that it's illegal everywhere else – suggests it is not just indentured servitude.

It's a bit like claiming that the thralls in Conan Exiles aren't actually slaves.


The difference between Slavery and Imperial Slavery is one being a heinous act while the other is a legislated means of social safety net in terms of getting indebted so bad you'd end on the street with no money - and most importantly, ashamed. Like I wrote before, you are untouchable as Imperial Slave and you can actually cut the contract with the master and search for another one, should you feel dissatisfied.

Also, the misconception is that Imperial Slaves are hold in the holds without any safety. In the lore, or at least I've read it somewhere in one of the big Imperial player factions fluff, the guys are put into stasis pods with life support and escape mechanism protection to last for a long time.

Sakashiro
This is not an in-game Galnet news release by some Imperial propaganda mouthpiece, mind you. This is FDev telling us in no uncertain terms what Imperial slavery is. Any interpretation to the contrary is outside the lore.


FDevs clearly stated that Empire of Achenar is heavily inspired by Roman Empire - meaning Imperial Slavery is based over actual Roman Debt Slavery. You have it in the Codex:

The Empire, while younger than the Federation, is the easily the equal of its historic rival in terms of scale and resources. The key social distinction between the two powers is that slavery in the Empire is legal - a fact that has remained a source of controversy since its inception, both within the Empire and without. Some observers have pointed out, however, that conditions for those at the lowest levels of Federal society are worse than those experienced by Imperial slaves. (...) The hierarchy of Imperial society is rigid, but a Citizen can always rise through the ranks if he or she becomes wealthy enough and makes the right connections. Even a slave could, in theory, become a Senator. (...) The Imperial society could be compared to the society of the ancient Rome, based on a demand/supply system with well-defined castes holding power. Credits and patronage bring influence to a person who then ascends in his caste. Status and honour are also very important and we can lose everything if our honor comes to be flouted, for example by corruption. Although drastically less present than in the Federation, corruption still exists, however the price to pay if this comes to be revealed is very high: death. Having an unpaid debt is considered a gigantic disgrace and that is why many citizens come to sell themselves as an imperial slave in order to purge their debts and regain their honour.

I'd like to point out a little detail that Imperial Slavery can be used to become the citizen of Empire.

Last edit: 09 Sep 2020, 11:32pm
User170387
10 Sep 2020, 6:03am
Sakashiro
A C EnderThese are all hints to me that the slavery in the Empire is not an actual "indented servitude".


HultharenThank you @Ender. =) In reality that is All we needed.. You're a life saver mate.. See a Saka? This is what I was actually talking about in principal. The game is stretching the concept with its own agenda.


I wouldn't blame you for not knowing this, but Ender's interpretation is identical with the one I chose as a starting point for my character's story. Yet, it's not the official position of FDev. Here's a quote from their Elite Dangerous Newsletter #22:
The Empire values both status and honor very highly indeed. So whilst it is acceptable to flaunt wealth, treating people well is a question of honour – and this includes slaves. Having an unpaid debt is seen as utterly dishonorable – an honorable Imperial citizen would sell themselves into slavery to clear a debt they couldn’t otherwise clear.


This is not an in-game Galnet news release by some Imperial propaganda mouthpiece, mind you. This is FDev telling us in no uncertain terms what Imperial slavery is. Any interpretation to the contrary is outside the lore.


So why did you have to moan about inconsistency here, and spoil it for us, if this was truly your idea in the first place?? =) I know when someone is being coy. =) Have a nice day. The facts are lovely. I hope there are no gaps now.
Sakashiro
10 Sep 2020, 6:46am
Nkizo BaxterAlso, the misconception is that Imperial Slaves are hold in the holds without any safety. In the lore, or at least I've read it somewhere in one of the big Imperial player factions fluff, the guys are put into stasis pods with life support and escape mechanism protection to last for a long time.



These are the four types of passenger cabins in the game. The economy class cabin you see at the top represents the minimum acceptable for the transport of people through space. It's basically a stack of pods with life support.

Cryostasis isn't life support but life suspension. It's what pilots use when life support fails. It's a means to keep the body in a condition so it can be re-animated later. The Imperial slave in a stasis pod is no more alive than the frozen synthetic meat in the canister next to them.

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