Elite: Lore
22 Oct 2020, 12:46pm
If anything, Neo-Marlinist Liberation Army sounds way too Communist. Remember how horrible such ideologies turned out for Russia and half of the Europe. In a lot of countries it only started as political philosophy, only to evolve into backstabbing fellow nationals just because "they didn't fit the new order".
22 Oct 2020, 1:07pm
bombing innocent civilians should never get any excuse
NMLA should be wiped out from the face of the galaxy
And them merely "sounding communist" is supposed to be an argument for what exactly? Because the Empire is a whole lot closer to fascism and I also remember how that turned out for Europe.
22 Oct 2020, 1:32pm
Sure, there are many critics on both sides of the Imperial vs Federation fence, & not entirely without merit - abuses & excesses carried to the extreme exist in both factions.
I think it also important to try to remove one's own subjective & period-based view on the topic with the eyes of our RL time period. E:D exists >1K years into the future. No doubt, the characters & factions in E:D see things differently. The circumstances have surely changed, not to mention, it is only a game!
re: the NMLA, afaik, the Marlinists sought & advocated a representative republican form of government, which by most current measures, might seem superior & more egalitarian. That some would resort to the kind of violence as seen in GalNet are sadly, the same kind of excesses, abuses & distortions which can & often do occur in any kind of cause-based movement & is echoed by what we have & do see today in RL.
That the current form of Imperial government is an oligarchy, that of a few select rulers whose claim to the 'throne' is passed down via family/bloodline, hereditary, hardly seems egalitarian nor representative. Looking through the eyes of today, one might seem to be more in support of Marlinism.
But, it's a game. The stage has been set. Whether or not that can be changed remains in the hands of the FDevs. Until then, we players must play the cards we have been dealt.
22 Oct 2020, 2:33pm
Rebecca Hailbombing innocent civilians should never get any excuse
NMLA should be wiped out from the face of the galaxy
I'd like to point out NMLA is responsible for bomb attacks with Thargoid pathogen, as well as to political assassination, to which they openly admitted as people being behind it.
And them merely "sounding communist" is supposed to be an argument for what exactly? Because the Empire is a whole lot closer to fascism and I also remember how that turned out for Europe.
Empire isn't fascism. Federation is - ran by corporations that use people as cheap labor and give zero opportunities (meanwhile in Empire, even if their debt slavery is the rescue to the same "must have the best stuff to impress everyone" issues going inside Federation, still gives higher chances not to rot in sewerage), with Zachary Hudson being a glorified cow who perceives himself as "successful example" of that Federal citizen can achieve everyone while insulting everyone unable to go out of their rathole they are in as "losers" and "lazy bums". Federation is the worst hell when it comes to being a citizen unless you aren't born in poverty. No social help to the poor, because that's perceived as "spoiling" people, while ignoring that you can't just advance is a system that has been horribly broken. And that system is horribly broken to extremes. Especially when you analyze it through Political Studies knowledge spectrum as a certified specialist in such a field.
Personally, I live in such a system as a person who had been looking for job for TWO YEARS, with qualifications that exceed "necessary" minimum, just because the "free job market" is pure anarchy - held hostage by rich employers who are mentally stopped in 19th C. extortion of employees. I will just spare going sour on how pandemic just crossed these chances to 0%.
Last edit: 22 Oct 2020, 2:50pm
22 Oct 2020, 2:48pm
Keltin VistoRebecca Hailbombing innocent civilians should never get any excuse
NMLA should be wiped out from the face of the galaxy
I'd like to point out NMLA is responsible for bomb attacks with Thargoid pathogen, as well as to political assassination, to which they openly admitted as people being behind it.
There's a famous proverb that goes: "Eye for an eye and the world will be blind."
If your enemy targets civilians, that doesn't mean that you have the right to do that too.
And them merely "sounding communist" is supposed to be an argument for what exactly? Because the Empire is a whole lot closer to fascism and I also remember how that turned out for Europe.
Empire isn't fascism. Federation is - ran by corporations that use people as cheap labor and give zero opportunities (meanwhile in Empire, even if their debt slavery is the rescue to the same "must have the best stuff to impress everyone" issues going inside Federation, still gives higher chances not to rot in sewerage), with Zachary Hudson being a glorified cow who perceives himself as "successful example" of that Federal citizen can achieve everyone while insulting everyone unable to go out of their rathole they are in as "losers" and "lazy bums". Federation is the worst hell when it comes to being a citizen unless you aren't born in poverty. No social help to the poor, because that's perceived as "spoiling" people, while ignoring that you can't just advance is a system that has been horribly broken. And that system is horribly broken to extremes.
If Zachary Hudson was a real person, I'd spit into his face, because his stance represents the most degenerate and most perverted version of what can go wrong in libertarian idealistic, on the verge of utopian, system. Any politician insulting people just because the system doesn't allow them to succeed is just an asshole who deserves being fired out of the office. Not only because of being just like that, but seemingly missing the basic knowledge in regard to social studies and knowledge of his own nation.
Personally, I live in such a system as a person who had been looking for job for TWO YEARS, with qualifications that exceed "necessary" minimum, just because the "free job market" is pure anarchy. I will just spare going sour on how pandemic just crossed these chances to 0%.
That's not fascism, that's corporatism. While corporatism without a doubt isn't a good system to live in either, the democracy corporatism hybrid system of the Federation, still beats the Empires oligarchic systems by miles. The difference here is that the Federation can be changed peacefully if enough citizens want said change. What happens in the Empire when the citizens want change can be seen currently.
Of course your points of criticism of the Federation are valid (even if they're exxaggerated af), but why is this topic even coming up? This discussion is about the Empire and the NMLA, isn't it?
22 Oct 2020, 2:58pm
After extensive historical research, I have discovered that by the 23rd century, Star Trek had overcome the problem of gravity by the use of Gravity plating imbeded into the ships deck, and the 'warp drive' overcame the problem of high-speed travel by employing the phenomenon of gravity well. Job Done. Thankyou.
22 Oct 2020, 3:01pm
I do sympathize with Marlinists to some extent, although with a great reservation because what I see is the echo of "but we just are just ideological Communists" who were first to backstab Polish government and their own people once Red Army invaded Poland in 1939, with horrors and terror that continued till 1989 despite Europe getting rid of Third Reich.
22 Oct 2020, 3:09pm
Keltin VistoIf some group uses bombs "for democracy" and murders civilians uninvolved into what government does, it should be shunned and removed from the existence as any form of legal political entity. NMLA is such a group. It should be removed - by force, if necessary.
The call to "wipe them from the face of the galaxy" implies something a bit more extreme than just "the removal from existence as form of legal political entity". That what I found so ironic, since it was preceeded by your statement that "bombing innocent civilians should never get an excuse".
I do sympathize with Marlinists to some extent, although with a great reservation because what I see is the echo of "but we just are just ideological Communists" who were first to backstab Polish government and their own people once Red Army invaded Poland in 1939, with horrors and terror that continued till 1989 despite getting rid of Third Reich.
They're not communists. They're democrats calling for the establishment of a republic.
22 Oct 2020, 4:11pm
French Revolution. Despite it crying for democracy and liberty it ended in genocide of minorities (e.g. Jews, Gypsies, Bretons) and those who didn't agree with the new order - these acts being also an indirect inspiration for Nazis.
If Achenar-driven power is going to look like Federation, then I wholly support Empire, because Federation is a place with severely broken society with no future for the people who were born into poverty.
Last edit: 22 Oct 2020, 4:22pm
22 Oct 2020, 5:21pm
DescartesOn Gravity.
After extensive historical research, I have discovered that by the 23rd century, Star Trek had overcome the problem of gravity by the use of Gravity plating imbeded into the ships deck, and the 'warp drive' overcame the problem of high-speed travel by employing the phenomenon of gravity well. Job Done. Thankyou.
Unfortunately artificial gravity isn't available in Elite. See here
I believe the FSD is based on the alcubierre drive though.
Last edit: 22 Oct 2020, 5:27pm
22 Oct 2020, 8:34pm
Keltin VistoIf some group uses bombs "for democracy" and murders civilians uninvolved into what government does, it should be shunned and removed from the existence as any form of legal political entity. NMLA is such a group. It should be removed - by force, if necessary.
So, like, representative democracy is communist and the American Revolution was a communist one, got it. Dialing up my local GOP org and getting them all to commit seppuku with that one as we speak.
Anyway, despite the similarities to realpolitik, the Superpowers in Elite: Dangerous are all clearly written with dystopia in mind. The Federation is USA-led neoliberalism taken to a horrifying extreme. The Empire is in many ways Space Rome, and the Roman Empire wasn't always exactly a shining paragon of civilized behavior. The Alliance is a kind of loose, shady, uh... alliance between states with wildly different policies and human rights records trying to maintain independence against the other two superpowers. I think. Not too up on Alliance lore.
There aren't really "Good guys" and "bad guys" in Elite, it's all shades of grey.
Dark, dark grey. I think some of those splotches might be bloodstains.
23 Oct 2020, 11:35am
Keltin Visto
French Revolution. Despite it crying for democracy and liberty it ended in genocide of minorities (e.g. Jews, Gypsies, Bretons) and those who didn't agree with the new order - these acts being also an indirect inspiration for Nazis.
Wh... What ?!? Ok, your previous examples with communism were already strange, but this theory about the french revolution is the strangest I ever heard about it, and I'm interested on the topic. It's a matter with a lot of propaganda (from the left explaining it was way more democratic than it was and the right explaining they were blood-thirsty savages blindly destroying and killing the catholic clergy and people), but I've never heard something so twisted... the french revolution genociding jews and gypsies was an exemple for the Nazis ? Ok, the "breton genocide", I can understand : it's a late XXth century claim from the some of the french far-right royalists, and while there was some massacres in this part of the country (the Vendée rebellion), the term of "genocide" is a modern invention and using this term for the Vendée is a controversy : it was a time of civil war AND of multiple wars (France was at war against almost all of Europe at that time) : the massacres were everywhere at that time, and on the two sides : the revolutionarists were committing massacres, the royalists were also. It's so different from a genocide, where a power murder some of his "own" people out of any battle, only because they "seem different".
Btw... why are we even comparing "modern" systems with the political systems from the XXXIVth century ? A socialist or a communist, or a liberal, or a capitalist, doesn't mean the same thing if we are talking about the beginning of the XX, or the beginning of the XXI century (now). We can't judge the political systems from E:D with a reading grid from a modern mind : it's supposedly 1200 years in the future. If we go back that time in the past, in Europe, it was the beginning of the vikings raids. Are you able to match modern political concepts on the people living in that time ? Do you think it matches correctly ?
23 Oct 2020, 12:45pm
Thyuchev
Btw... why are we even comparing "modern" systems with the political systems from the XXXIVth century ? A socialist or a communist, or a liberal, or a capitalist, doesn't mean the same thing if we are talking about the beginning of the XX, or the beginning of the XXI century (now). We can't judge the political systems from E:D with a reading grid from a modern mind : it's supposedly 1200 years in the future. If we go back that time in the past, in Europe, it was the beginning of the vikings raids. Are you able to match modern political concepts on the people living in that time ? Do you think it matches correctly ?
Communist, Liberal, and various other shades of "capitalist" states, among others, explicitly exist in E:D. They are literally labeled as such when you go to the mission board. If we don't assume those labels mean the same thing to a reader in 3306 as a contemporary we enter a realm of what you could call a... Dangerous lack of lore context.
23 Oct 2020, 1:40pm
OOSqueekyKeltin VistoIf some group uses bombs "for democracy" and murders civilians uninvolved into what government does, it should be shunned and removed from the existence as any form of legal political entity. NMLA is such a group. It should be removed - by force, if necessary.
So, like, representative democracy is communist and the American Revolution was a communist one, got it. Dialing up my local GOP org and getting them all to commit seppuku with that one as we speak.
Anyway, despite the similarities to realpolitik, the Superpowers in Elite: Dangerous are all clearly written with dystopia in mind. The Federation is USA-led neoliberalism taken to a horrifying extreme. The Empire is in many ways Space Rome, and the Roman Empire wasn't always exactly a shining paragon of civilized behavior. The Alliance is a kind of loose, shady, uh... alliance between states with wildly different policies and human rights records trying to maintain independence against the other two superpowers. I think. Not too up on Alliance lore.
There aren't really "Good guys" and "bad guys" in Elite, it's all shades of grey.
Dark, dark grey. I think some of those splotches might be bloodstains.
This is descriptive of my feelings as well.
23 Oct 2020, 2:36pm
Thyuchevyour previous examples with communism were already strange, but this theory about the french revolution is the strangest I ever heard about it, and I'm interested on the topic
Private Message has been sent. For the reference, I am MA in Political Studies who wrote a rather excessive thesis about it, so please.
OOSqueekySo, like, representative democracy is communist and the American Revolution was a communist one, got it. Dialing up my local GOP org and getting them all to commit seppuku with that one as we speak.
Unless you are going to reread and understand what I wrote, I am not going to even comment on that. I never ever suggested what you wrote and I hate when someone puts the words I never said into my mouth.