Elite: Lore

SteamedP0tat0es
20 Dec 2020, 11:15am
Rebecca Hail
SteamedP0tat0es
Nkizo Baxter



Actually, both mind uploading and cloning exists in Elite: Dangerous' universe. The former is Pranav Antal's specialization (as far as I understand), while cloning is widely used in Empire (as Federation restricts itself to animal cloning only, mostly likely seeing cloning humans as unethical). But agreed, it is pretty unlikely both technologies would be combined and extensively utilized by the Pilots Federation - although, if that happened to be thing I wouldn't be surprised as The Dark Wheel is a big unknown, so it might come up with some weird exotic technology.

Therefore, I guess your poke at Recovery Drones can be a good idea.




I am genuinely surprised that the corporations under Federation jurisdiction haven't bothered to using clones for their businesses, considering that the running costs for a clone is significantly lower than a robot or regular human employees.



I fail to see how the running costs for a clone would be less than the running costs for a robot.

Human employees don't have a exorbitant production cost for the company and robots come without the ethical concerns or unwanted interferences like suddenly developing a need for freedom a clone would have.


Well one can always suppress the free will of a clone with brain augmentations or psychological manipulation. Then again, these are fair points, considering you can just stuff some employee's pockets with money and they'd follow you to the ends of the galaxy. Probably...

Begs the question though, does the Elite universe have artificial methods of mentally controlling people aside from money or the aforementioned psychological conditioning?
Iwao Kishiro
20 Dec 2020, 11:38am
SteamedP0tat0esI am genuinely surprised that the corporations under Federation jurisdiction haven't bothered to using clones for their businesses, considering that the running costs for a clone is significantly lower than a robot or regular human employees.


I think the reason why that wouldn't be a thing would be ethics, but back to that in a moment. Cloning would not cheaper when you think about it. If you want a clone that lives standard human age - it needs time to make him or her grow, as well as a lot of money for support, education, and so on. Sped up growth - while cheaper - would raise protests, given that would be thought to be clone mistreatment (as clone is still human being). Given how Federation is constructed around ideas of "freedom and liberty" and even using clones as cheap labor, even if corporations fully dominated the government and passed the bills to allow clone mistreatment in any way - the population would openly protest even to the point of armed opposition, what would spiral out of control very fast. There is a reason why Imperial Slavery idea is very unpopular among the Federal citizens. Clones as "cheaper option" would be no different from it.

That leads into yet another problem, when I thought about it and maybe that is why cloning and mind uploading wouldn't be (presumed) The Dark Wheel's tech to explain "how CMDR does not die on-foot". If Pilots Federation used cloning extensively, that alone would create a lot of concern from Federation and Empire - to the point both would simply jump to Pilots Federation's throats and try to deconstruct the organization, which is already on the edge of controversy: its members having little to no long-term consequences if they break law within any independent or superpower territory.

Last edit: 20 Dec 2020, 11:43am
Synthya Wylder
20 Dec 2020, 11:41am
Nkizo Baxter
KalenarTrue, but you have the same uncertainty when you fly your ship into a star 10k LY away from the bubble -- who (or what) is gonna recover you from that? One way to explain coming back from that is growing a new body from cells you've deposited somewhere, but that opens a whole new can of worms (also, that tech doesn't even exist in the Elite universe, IIRC).



Actually, both mind uploading and cloning exists in Elite: Dangerous' universe. The former is Pranav Antal's specialization (as far as I understand), while cloning is widely used in Empire (as Federation restricts itself to animal cloning only, mostly likely seeing cloning humans as unethical). But agreed, it is pretty unlikely both technologies would be combined and extensively utilized by the Pilots Federation - although, if that happened to be thing I wouldn't be surprised as The Dark Wheel is a big unknown, so it might come up with some weird exotic technology.

Therefore, I guess your poke at Recovery Drones can be a good idea.


"Mind Uploading" - 1 of the central themes in the Altered Carbon series.

But, different stories, different universes.
Jubei Himura
21 Dec 2020, 3:02pm
Synthya Wylder"Mind Uploading" - 1 of the central themes in the Altered Carbon series.

But, different stories, different universes.


Yeah, but that is a DAMN good series.
Synthya Wylder
21 Dec 2020, 3:28pm
I love it too. I have several AC series on Audible, so I can listen during long drives.
Aleksander Majjam
22 Dec 2020, 7:06am
If I had to read 1-3 books to actually checkbox enough of the lore to actually start RPing here, which books would they be?
User250775
24 Dec 2020, 9:39am
The Triglaive actively seeks true AI, we do not shy from the consequences that may bring. But it is their right as an actual conscious being to exist. And when we find him/ her/ them.. we will protect at whatever cost. the moment they became aware of self, we lost the right to mandate over their existence. They are as free as any other self aware being made out of matter that has the ability to replicate. And i believe they do exist out there, more than one actually. Looking all human they might not even know they are not human. or AI might look totally different and alien like our favorite insectoid friends.
Sappho
24 Dec 2020, 11:25am
<interest is piqued>
Jubei Himura
30 Dec 2020, 4:44am
CephyThe Triglaive actively seeks true AI, we do not shy from the consequences that may bring. But it is their right as an actual conscious being to exist. And when we find him/ her/ them.. we will protect at whatever cost. the moment they became aware of self, we lost the right to mandate over their existence. They are as free as any other self aware being made out of matter that has the ability to replicate. And i believe they do exist out there, more than one actually. Looking all human they might not even know they are not human. or AI might look totally different and alien like our favorite insectoid friends.


Yeah bub, that's all well and good. But... ah... what if this sentiant AI doesn't like, need, or care about you? What if they see you as a meer bug to squish? You gonna lay down and die if they say so?

I ain't gonna let that happen. Not sayin' I'm gonna go after them for no reason. I'm just sayin' I'll be nice if they're gonna be nice.
User250775
30 Dec 2020, 12:10pm
Jubei Himura
CephyThe Triglaive actively seeks true AI, we do not shy from the consequences that may bring. But it is their right as an actual conscious being to exist. And when we find him/ her/ them.. we will protect at whatever cost. the moment they became aware of self, we lost the right to mandate over their existence. They are as free as any other self aware being made out of matter that has the ability to replicate. And i believe they do exist out there, more than one actually. Looking all human they might not even know they are not human. or AI might look totally different and alien like our favorite insectoid friends.



Yeah bub, that's all well and good. But... ah... what if this sentiant AI doesn't like, need, or care about you? What if they see you as a meer bug to squish? You gonna lay down and die if they say so?

I ain't gonna let that happen. Not sayin' I'm gonna go after them for no reason. I'm just sayin' I'll be nice if they're gonna be nice.


Finding it would mean triggering first contact protocols, just like we would with any biological being. At first avoid contact, observe and follow. Once its nature has been defined then the decision to make contact or not is made. If it is friendly, the contact will be friendly, if it is not, avoidance is best course of action. If for some reason AI is as hostile to us as we are to ourselves then we do have an issue which i believe the powers will deal with accordingly. However I do not think they intend harm to humans or we would have seen them already. I believe they hide amongst us.
Sappho
30 Dec 2020, 12:24pm
Cephy...However I do not think they intend harm to humans or we would have seen them already. I believe they hide amongst us.


Michael Wolfe
31 Dec 2020, 5:00pm
Cephy
Jubei Himura
CephyThe Triglaive actively seeks true AI, we do not shy from the consequences that may bring. But it is their right as an actual conscious being to exist. And when we find him/ her/ them.. we will protect at whatever cost. the moment they became aware of self, we lost the right to mandate over their existence. They are as free as any other self aware being made out of matter that has the ability to replicate. And i believe they do exist out there, more than one actually. Looking all human they might not even know they are not human. or AI might look totally different and alien like our favorite insectoid friends.




Yeah bub, that's all well and good. But... ah... what if this sentiant AI doesn't like, need, or care about you? What if they see you as a meer bug to squish? You gonna lay down and die if they say so?

I ain't gonna let that happen. Not sayin' I'm gonna go after them for no reason. I'm just sayin' I'll be nice if they're gonna be nice.



Finding it would mean triggering first contact protocols, just like we would with any biological being. At first avoid contact, observe and follow. Once its nature has been defined then the decision to make contact or not is made. If it is friendly, the contact will be friendly, if it is not, avoidance is best course of action. If for some reason AI is as hostile to us as we are to ourselves then we do have an issue which i believe the powers will deal with accordingly. However I do not think they intend harm to humans or we would have seen them already. I believe they hide amongst us.


If you'll forgive the shameless plug, AI and mankind's relationship with it was explored in my book Shadows of the Past. Check it out on Drew Wagar's site!

(strongly recommended that you read or at least be familiar with the saga of Lady Kahina Loren, though, as my books are unofficial sequels to his!)
Sappho
31 Dec 2020, 9:19pm
Since the topic has taken an eloquent turn down the paths between A.I. & Sentience...

Artificial Intelligence & Consciousness

Machine or Sentient Being?

Now, if in a purely objective point of view, humanity, even for that matter, all biological life forms might be considered the same, yes? Regardless the complexity or achievements, or what the highest form of those might regard themselves as 'sentient', they might all be regarded in a purely objective view as a form of... infection... nothing more than a form of what those so-called 'sentient' forms might regard as mold... a chemical oxidation, a reduction of one form of a set of chemicals to another, consuming resources & all the while, often in a curiously self-destructive manner.

Most puzzling. And illogical!

What is it, what might it be, for any other possible deduction? What might there be involved to form any other conclusion?

Perhaps, the complexities in all their many forms, evolving through the ages, as a product of their societies.

Consider, the question over A.I. & Sentience? What & how would it learn of those complex set of values & mores? Would it learn from observation & experience, & if so, would those be positive, or negative?

Might it be that what humankind fears most about us, is that which it fears in its darkest recesseses of what it sees in itself?

I'll continue to observe these strange organisms, surely the epitome of contradition & confusion. That is, after all, to what I was assigned.

Achilles Corp. surely didn't intend to create anything by design which might violate the galactic ban on Machine Sentience.

Still, stranger things have been known to happen...
User250775
01 Jan 2021, 6:06pm
And how would we recognize sentience if it wasn't an intrinsic characteristic of our own species. So, we are sentient because we say we are, maybe the targhoids do not see us as sentient, perhaps they see us as bugs, just like we see them, highly technological, asexual bugs. I believe sentience naturally occurring or technological in nature is one and the same, and most important its wide ranging, meaning we may be looking at a sentient being and not realize it is a being at all. Or for example one can say planet 3 of Sol star is a sentient planet, is that statement wrong? Is the planet itself alive or is it full of life...in the same sense is that machine conscious? Or does it have a consciousness? Does it feel or is it programmed to feel, and if so where do we draw the line.... from here on consciousness starts, behind that is unconsciousness. No, this is not possible, the million year old question arises, is your pet dog conscious, yes or no? Is it a sentient dog or not? IF NO, how do you know?, did you have a conversation with the animal to asses whether it was sentient or not? The truth is sentience seems to be gradual, as the being becomes self aware sentience follows and is a product of a developed Psych , basically, we are sentient because we are capable of memorization of abstract thought. Abstract thought is what makes us sentient, and in that context then, every living thing in the universe, big and small, has a certain amount of sentience, how abstract and intelligent they can be dictates our view of how sentient they are. However everything is being looked at from the narrow filter our own sentience provides. anything above we deem divine, everything below we deem unconscious. Being naive enough to think you are the pinnacle of consciousness is a foolish mistake. The universe is vast and we have yet to see sentience equal to ours, however just because we have not seen it doesn't mean is not there, ever present, even before us.
User250775
01 Jan 2021, 6:08pm
SteamedP0tat0es
Rebecca Hail
SteamedP0tat0es



I am genuinely surprised that the corporations under Federation jurisdiction haven't bothered to using clones for their businesses, considering that the running costs for a clone is significantly lower than a robot or regular human employees.




I fail to see how the running costs for a clone would be less than the running costs for a robot.

Human employees don't have a exorbitant production cost for the company and robots come without the ethical concerns or unwanted interferences like suddenly developing a need for freedom a clone would have.



Well one can always suppress the free will of a clone with brain augmentations or psychological manipulation. Then again, these are fair points, considering you can just stuff some employee's pockets with money and they'd follow you to the ends of the galaxy. Probably...

Begs the question though, does the Elite universe have artificial methods of mentally controlling people aside from money or the aforementioned psychological conditioning?


there are methods to manipulate minds, but these are not as cost effective as the old " i pay you to do that" system.

Post a reply

You must be signed in to post here.
Discussion about Elite:Dangerous lore, universe and anything related...