Elite: Lore

A C Ender
11 Dec 2020, 6:53pm
Abandoned
Sakashiro(...) It's not a coincidence that all the arguments in favor of Imperial slavery appear to be taken from 19th century U.S. proslavery propaganda. Examples can be found here. Imp slaves are better off than "wage slaves" in Federation space? Check. Slave owners take good care of the needs of their slaves? Check. Slaves are provided with free housing, clothing, food? Check. Slaves are happy and protected from abuse? Check.



You are aware that Imperial Slavery is not based on 19th C. slavery but Roman (debt) slavery, which was a wholly different social construct that had no ethnic bias and was ran by different ideas, unlike slavery maintained by colonial powers and the countries with colonial heritage, right?

Historical note:
As for American slavery of the Black people, this could be averted if United States at its very inception outright banned slavery and educated the freed slaves, like Thaddeus Kosciusko vowed for (and even spent majority of his fortune in that direction) However, Thomas Jefferson not only opposed emancipation but outright rejected Kosciusko's deathbed testament - with his fortune (in fact, illegally in accordance to Roman law principles of civil law relating to the will) distributed to different less-critical areas.

Did you read this post?

Just because it's "another kind" of slavery doesn't make it good.

All the sources I've seen on imperial slavery appear to be written from the perspective of someone in power. I think Eris outlined well why the "choice" of going into slavery in many situations aren't an actual choice.
Synthya Wylder
11 Dec 2020, 7:13pm
The only thing in life in which one has absitively no choice, (In RL anyway) is death.

All others are a choice, difficult as some may be.
Eris
12 Dec 2020, 3:03am
Synthya WylderThe only thing in life in which one has absitively no choice, (In RL anyway) is death.

All others are a choice, difficult as some may be.


From a legal, historical, and human rights stand point, you're incorrect.

Technically chosing between certain death and slavery is a choice, but modern laws concerning slavery, current historical practice, and human rights advocates say it may as well not be.

Then we could get philosophical and argue that there's no such thing as choice, and that all our actions are pre-determined by chain of events in the entire universe's history leading up to each individual moment, but why would we want to do that?
Synthya Wylder
12 Dec 2020, 2:39pm
"...difficult as some [choices] might be..."

Other protestations to the contrary are a cop-out. Saying that one has no choice is surrendering the responsibility for having to make the choice. Making no choice is still making a choice - to do nothing & relinquishing the right to make a choice, passing that along to someone or something else. One must accept without lamentation & regret for the consequences.

I obviously disagree. But, perhaps my perspective differs due to my belief system & life experiences.

Note that I'm not saying "you're incorrect"; merely that I disagree.

I wanted to point out the apparent disparity between "current" & "historical" when used together.

I'm avoiding completely the metaphysical discussion as I have better things to do with my limited time & energy than dive down a bottomless rabbit-hole.
A C Ender
12 Dec 2020, 9:32pm
Synthya WylderThe only thing in life in which one has absitively no choice, (In RL anyway) is death.

All others are a choice, difficult as some may be.


What if I rephrase it as "If you want to continue living legally in the system, there's only one choice left"? If you lack the means to legally change the outcome (by not having funds to change the legally impending situation, or the funds to leave the jurisdiction), there may very well only be once choice that's legal left for you, if you want to continue to live.

I have argued before that I believe the Imperial system is designed by the elite class so that a large number of the population at all times are bound in slavery. A few key points why I believe this must be the case:
1) Empire doesn't use robotics (so manual repetitive labour is required, and productivity increase can't happen by use of robotics)
2) Using a slave for a task will be cheaper than a free worker.
As such, it's likely that most unskilled labour will be dominated by slaves (to the profit of the masters) - and the lower class lacking the funds to own slaves can't benefit from this cheaper work force. They will therefore be forced to compete with slaves in salary - reasonably living at a significantly worse standard than slaves (or being unable to sustain their lives without getting into debt), which shortly lead to them being forced into slavery so that they don't starve.

You could say they freely choose this - but do you really think it's an actual choice between starving to death or slavery? Considering how easy a lot of people have accepted vast reductions in freedoms during 2020, I think it's not at all hard to believe that many people would choose slavery over starving to death. And you don't need all of them to - just enough so that the remaining can't revolt. The ones who doesn't want to give up their freedom will die (or as they start to actually starve and being unable to afford basic standards of living revise their choice).

Also: There is a choice in death. You can choose when you die.
Sappho
13 Dec 2020, 5:18pm
The actual choice of dying, there is no choice. Sooner or later, it'll happen.

The timing of it, yes, one does have a choice as to when.

Unless, one takes into account, Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics.

Is being deactivated another form of 'death' for an artificial mechanism, or is it possible for what makes then unique able to live forever, conceivably?

Do Androids dream of electric sheep?
Quriosyty
19 Dec 2020, 10:40am
SapphoThe actual choice of dying, there is no choice. Sooner or later, it'll happen.

The timing of it, yes, one does have a choice as to when.

Unless, one takes into account, Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics.

Is being deactivated another form of 'death' for an artificial mechanism, or is it possible for what makes then unique able to live forever, conceivably?

Do Androids dream of electric sheep?



I’m assuming your question is tied to the third law:

• A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws

So in essence the question is: Is deactivation a form of death? My first reaction is to say ‘No’. After all deactivation implies that reactivation can occur at some later time; deactivation is not destruction after all. What happens in the interim? Is deactivation a form of ‘sleep’? And if so, do androids dream of electric sheep? I cannot say.

Perhaps we should ask an android?

Last edit: 19 Dec 2020, 12:12pm
Iwao Kishiro
19 Dec 2020, 8:34pm
I think the issue of "how Commander is not killed on-foot" in Odyssey will be explained with one thing:

Achilles.

I mean, think about it. The Odyssey subtitle, while might be just coincidental, MAY hint towards Achilles Corporation - which is named after the character that appears in actual Homer's epic poem Odyssey - is a corporation that focuses on the robotics. That means we might be controlling "soldiers" through mechanical version of the telepresence. What is even more interesting is that the same Achilles Corporation has the aerospace division, too.

Last edit: 19 Dec 2020, 8:43pm
Kalenar
19 Dec 2020, 8:46pm
Nkizo BaxterI think the issue of "how Commander is not killed on-foot" in Odyssey will be explained with one thing:

Achilles.


I mean, think about it. The Odyssey subtitle, while might be just coincidental, MAY hint towards Achilles Corporation - which is named after the character that appears in actual Homer's epic poem Odyssey - is a corporation that focuses on the robotics. That means we might be controlling "soldiers" through mechanical version of the telepresence.


Handwaving it away with automated recovery drones or something similar seems a easier and more in-line with what happens when your ship gets blown up.

There's also this fun game called Outward which has a neat solution for dying: Unless you play on hardcore, some random event happens when you drop to zero HP -- either you get rescued by a stranger who leaves your backpack with you in a safe spot, or you get captured by bandits and need to fight your way to freedom (and find you loot somewhere), or a bunch of other things happen. Not really feasible in ED of course because you'll be relatively alone in most places and because it's a multiplayer game, but still a fun and immersive system imho.
Iwao Kishiro
19 Dec 2020, 9:04pm
Well, I tried! Restore drones is the idea I didn't really think about, but then what about being hit from a Multicannon round? Expanse in one of the first episodes kinda shows effect of using such rounds. It just rips you apart - and given Multicannons are VERY big. That's why I was thinking about Achilles robots used.

And I like idea with Outward to be honest... it was one of the most unique ways to put the "death/respawn" system in something else that "undead" (Soulsborne games) or not explain it at all.
Kalenar
19 Dec 2020, 9:20pm
True, but you have the same uncertainty when you fly your ship into a star 10k LY away from the bubble -- who (or what) is gonna recover you from that? One way to explain coming back from that is growing a new body from cells you've deposited somewhere, but that opens a whole new can of worms (also, that tech doesn't even exist in the Elite universe, IIRC).
Iwao Kishiro
19 Dec 2020, 9:41pm
KalenarTrue, but you have the same uncertainty when you fly your ship into a star 10k LY away from the bubble -- who (or what) is gonna recover you from that? One way to explain coming back from that is growing a new body from cells you've deposited somewhere, but that opens a whole new can of worms (also, that tech doesn't even exist in the Elite universe, IIRC).


Actually, both mind uploading and cloning exists in Elite: Dangerous' universe. The former is Pranav Antal's specialization (as far as I understand), while cloning is widely used in Empire (as Federation restricts itself to animal cloning only, mostly likely seeing cloning humans as unethical). But agreed, it is pretty unlikely both technologies would be combined and extensively utilized by the Pilots Federation - although, if that happened to be thing I wouldn't be surprised as The Dark Wheel is a big unknown, so it might come up with some weird exotic technology.

Therefore, I guess your poke at Recovery Drones can be a good idea.
Kalenar
20 Dec 2020, 8:40am
Hah, you're right. Kinda embarassing that I forgot about mind uploading being in Elite, given that I just read Elite: Reclamation...
SteamedP0tat0es
20 Dec 2020, 9:08am
Nkizo Baxter
KalenarTrue, but you have the same uncertainty when you fly your ship into a star 10k LY away from the bubble -- who (or what) is gonna recover you from that? One way to explain coming back from that is growing a new body from cells you've deposited somewhere, but that opens a whole new can of worms (also, that tech doesn't even exist in the Elite universe, IIRC).



Actually, both mind uploading and cloning exists in Elite: Dangerous' universe. The former is Pranav Antal's specialization (as far as I understand), while cloning is widely used in Empire (as Federation restricts itself to animal cloning only, mostly likely seeing cloning humans as unethical). But agreed, it is pretty unlikely both technologies would be combined and extensively utilized by the Pilots Federation - although, if that happened to be thing I wouldn't be surprised as The Dark Wheel is a big unknown, so it might come up with some weird exotic technology.

Therefore, I guess your poke at Recovery Drones can be a good idea.


I am genuinely surprised that the corporations under Federation jurisdiction haven't bothered to using clones for their businesses, considering that the running costs for a clone is significantly lower than a robot or regular human employees.
Rebecca Hail
20 Dec 2020, 10:51am
SteamedP0tat0es
Nkizo Baxter
KalenarTrue, but you have the same uncertainty when you fly your ship into a star 10k LY away from the bubble -- who (or what) is gonna recover you from that? One way to explain coming back from that is growing a new body from cells you've deposited somewhere, but that opens a whole new can of worms (also, that tech doesn't even exist in the Elite universe, IIRC).




Actually, both mind uploading and cloning exists in Elite: Dangerous' universe. The former is Pranav Antal's specialization (as far as I understand), while cloning is widely used in Empire (as Federation restricts itself to animal cloning only, mostly likely seeing cloning humans as unethical). But agreed, it is pretty unlikely both technologies would be combined and extensively utilized by the Pilots Federation - although, if that happened to be thing I wouldn't be surprised as The Dark Wheel is a big unknown, so it might come up with some weird exotic technology.

Therefore, I guess your poke at Recovery Drones can be a good idea.



I am genuinely surprised that the corporations under Federation jurisdiction haven't bothered to using clones for their businesses, considering that the running costs for a clone is significantly lower than a robot or regular human employees.


I fail to see how the running costs for a clone would be less than the running costs for a robot.

Human employees don't have a exorbitant production cost for the company and robots come without the ethical concerns or unwanted interferences like suddenly developing a need for freedom a clone would have.

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