Elite: Lore
06 Jul 2021, 3:05pm
I think much the same mechanisms are at play in the Federation (but they don't need as much cheap labour either due to heavy use of automation), but they're not as good as hiding it under the rug as the Empire supporters are.
My character is hardly a good person, being under the Kumo banner, but they're the most honest bunch in my eyes. You know what you're getting into, and so do those around you. Like the one I support said; "We all wear a crown of bones" - I just think some sides are bigger hypocrites than others, with the Empire as the biggest.
06 Jul 2021, 3:23pm
A C EnderIn terms of who I would first oppose in a CG, the Empire come first. The simple reason for this is that I consider them the largest bunch of hypocrites out there. They try to portray themselves as a good alternative to the Federation, when the fact remains that they're just as bad. Their propaganda is just working better against people who don't think about it deeply. As I mentioned in my last post, there's no logical way that the Empire could compete with the Federation if they didn't abuse their system of having a slave cast for essentially free labour. By that I don't mean that individual slaves are abused (but I'm equally sure many are), but that there are systems in place to ensure that a large proportion of the population in the Empire systems are within the slave caste. A large part of that is likely from debt-trapping or tempting the lowest cast citizens into slavery. "They are indentured servants" and "They're not forced" are the retorts - if you are presented with a meal every day, or starving to death, most sane people would chose the former. That doesn't make it a respectable life.
I think much the same mechanisms are at play in the Federation (but they don't need as much cheap labour either due to heavy use of automation), but they're not as good as hiding it under the rug as the Empire supporters are.
My character is hardly a good person, being under the Kumo banner, but they're the most honest bunch in my eyes. You know what you're getting into, and so do those around you. Like the one I support said; "We all wear a crown of bones" - I just think some sides are bigger hypocrites than others, with the Empire as the biggest.
Mistreating an Imperial Slave you own is not only considered dishonorable within the Empire, it will also be prosecuted and punished by the ISA.
06 Jul 2021, 3:48pm
06 Jul 2021, 3:53pm
The Empire says that they treat their slaves well, and that it’s more like indentured service from days of old. Well, I don’t remember indentured service being so great. I also remember giving ship tours to escaped Imperial slaves and watching them weep when I showed them what a cargo canister looks like. Seems like they knew; all too well. And for my part, anyone who is bought and sold as a cargo item is no longer being treated with the respect that they deserve.
ED RPG Corebook
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06 Jul 2021, 3:58pm
"The Empire relies less on mechanical technology such as robotics and artificial intelligence, and instead uses Imperial Slaves and clones to do the work which machines usually perform in other parts of the universe."
Putting aside arbitral capitalist costs, things still have an actual cost; that is resources required to produce them. That's both time and raw materials. A human will be slower and less exact then a machine. It will also consume more resources to perform the same task (otherwise machines wouldn't be used for that task). The direct consequence is that in the Empire, a very large part of the population (not counted as the actual population since they're not citizens) will be required to do tasks that none else want to do. I'm sure you've heard about all the factory workers in early industrial revolution. That's the Empire for you. And what "unions" do the workers have to turn to? Well, the state sponsored ISA! The same state that need them in droves!
Let's also just skim over the fact that clones are no less humans than a monozygotic twins...
06 Jul 2021, 4:03pm
Torval suffered a political setback when several slave management planets, including Sorbago, launched a bloody uprising over their poor treatment. Torval emerged richer from the escapade, after deploying her fleet to crush the uprising and add to her slave stocks, but the revolution left a bad taste in the mouths of the more sensitive Imperial citizens.
Also the ED RPG Corebook.
06 Jul 2021, 4:12pm
Rebecca HailTorval suffered a political setback when several slave management planets, including Sorbago, launched a bloody uprising over their poor treatment. Torval emerged richer from the escapade, after deploying her fleet to crush the uprising and add to her slave stocks, but the revolution left a bad taste in the mouths of the more sensitive Imperial citizens.
Also the ED RPG Corebook.
Looking at that quote of hers in her Powerplay profile I guess she found those claims of poor treatment to be valid, resulting with those who were tasked with handling them having become slaves themselves to compensate for the damages done.
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06 Jul 2021, 4:13pm
Rebecca HailThe Empire says that they treat their slaves well, and that it’s more like indentured service from days of old. Well, I don’t remember indentured service being so great. I also remember giving ship tours to escaped Imperial slaves and watching them weep when I showed them what a cargo canister looks like. Seems like they knew; all too well. And for my part, anyone who is bought and sold as a cargo item is no longer being treated with the respect that they deserve.
ED RPG Corebook
I'm already expecting the reply:
"The RPG books are not canon!"
That's true. But that just means that everything within them isn't canon. It doesn't mean that nothing is. And in this case I think there's plenty of supporting evidence that what's described in your quotes is required for the functioning of the Empire.
06 Jul 2021, 4:17pm
Amata LireinRebecca HailTorval suffered a political setback when several slave management planets, including Sorbago, launched a bloody uprising over their poor treatment. Torval emerged richer from the escapade, after deploying her fleet to crush the uprising and add to her slave stocks, but the revolution left a bad taste in the mouths of the more sensitive Imperial citizens.
Also the ED RPG Corebook.
Looking at that quote of hers in her Powerplay profile I guess she found those claims of poor treatment to be valid, resulting with those who were tasked with handling them having become slaves themselves to compensate for the damages done.
Yet she's the owner of those slaves and they were mistreated under her jurisdiction.
You don't get into her position by simply believing what your subordinates tell you, so I don't believe the good old "I didn't know what they were doing, but I punished them for it."-tale for a single second and I don't doubt that a lot of scapegoats were sold into slavery as well over it.
Either Torval herself was maximising profit and minimizing cost or she willingly accepted that someone else did it in her place and it backfired. ^^
06 Jul 2021, 4:22pm
A C EnderRebecca HailThe Empire says that they treat their slaves well, and that it’s more like indentured service from days of old. Well, I don’t remember indentured service being so great. I also remember giving ship tours to escaped Imperial slaves and watching them weep when I showed them what a cargo canister looks like. Seems like they knew; all too well. And for my part, anyone who is bought and sold as a cargo item is no longer being treated with the respect that they deserve.
ED RPG Corebook
I'm already expecting the reply:
"The RPG books are not canon!"
That's true. But that just means that everything within them isn't canon. It doesn't mean that nothing is. And in this case I think there's plenty of supporting evidence that what's described in your quotes is required for the functioning of the Empire.
Nah, Amata isn't that ignorant. She tries to slyly wriggle her way out of things when she gets pinned down, in a very unimperial fashion. xD
06 Jul 2021, 4:27pm
Rebecca HailAmata LireinRebecca Hail
Also the ED RPG Corebook.
Looking at that quote of hers in her Powerplay profile I guess she found those claims of poor treatment to be valid, resulting with those who were tasked with handling them having become slaves themselves to compensate for the damages done.
Yet she's the owner of those slaves and they were mistreated under her jurisdiction.
You don't get into her position by simply believing what your subordinates tell you, so I don't believe the good old "I didn't know what they were doing, but I punished them for it."-tale for a single second and I don't doubt that a lot of scapegoats were sold into slavery as well over it.
Either Torval herself was maximising profit and minimizing cost or she willingly accepted that someone else did it in her place and it backfired. ^^
The following is OOC:
The thing here about Torval is that only big flaw I feel you can really bring up against the Empire: The Senators are ABOVE the law and are only accountable towards the Emperor. Getting on the Emperor's bad side is a bad idea though as you may be well aware of
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On the other side though "corruption" within the Empire goes down the ladder, not upwards:
Senators can lose Patrons quickly if their actions are unpopular, but bear in mind a Senator sets tax rates and healthcare for all those that support them, so can effectively bribe Patrons to ally themselves with them.
Source
This system of bribes also continue from patrons towards clients and clients towards citizens.
06 Jul 2021, 5:15pm
A C EnderI suppose you just skim over this "minor" part without thinking about the implications:
"The Empire relies less on mechanical technology such as robotics and artificial intelligence, and instead uses Imperial Slaves and clones to do the work which machines usually perform in other parts of the universe."
Putting aside arbitral capitalist costs, things still have an actual cost; that is resources required to produce them. That's both time and raw materials. A human will be slower and less exact then a machine. It will also consume more resources to perform the same task (otherwise machines wouldn't be used for that task). The direct consequence is that in the Empire, a very large part of the population (not counted as the actual population since they're not citizens) will be required to do tasks that none else want to do. I'm sure you've heard about all the factory workers in early industrial revolution. That's the Empire for you. And what "unions" do the workers have to turn to? Well, the state sponsored ISA! The same state that need them in droves!
Let's also just skim over the fact that clones are no less humans than a monozygotic twins...
I'd like to hear a response about this Amata
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06 Jul 2021, 5:19pm
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06 Jul 2021, 5:23pm
Amata LireinRebecca HailAmata Lirein
Looking at that quote of hers in her Powerplay profile I guess she found those claims of poor treatment to be valid, resulting with those who were tasked with handling them having become slaves themselves to compensate for the damages done.
Yet she's the owner of those slaves and they were mistreated under her jurisdiction.
You don't get into her position by simply believing what your subordinates tell you, so I don't believe the good old "I didn't know what they were doing, but I punished them for it."-tale for a single second and I don't doubt that a lot of scapegoats were sold into slavery as well over it.
Either Torval herself was maximising profit and minimizing cost or she willingly accepted that someone else did it in her place and it backfired. ^^
The following is OOC:
The thing here about Torval is that only big flaw I feel you can really bring up against the Empire: The Senators are ABOVE the law and are only accountable towards the Emperor. Getting on the Emperor's bad side is a bad idea though as you may be well aware of
On the other side though "corruption" within the Empire goes down the ladder, not upwards:
Senators can lose Patrons quickly if their actions are unpopular, but bear in mind a Senator sets tax rates and healthcare for all those that support them, so can effectively bribe Patrons to ally themselves with them.
Source
This system of bribes also continue from patrons towards clients and clients towards citizens.
The entirety of the Empires political system is flawed by default, Amata. As all big hereditary autocracies, it's destined to fail at some point, as the upper strata of all autocracies have the inherent need to oppress the lower strata of their society to maintain their own status and illusion of power.
Social mobility in the Empire is extremely low and it takes many generations for a family to even climb a single level on the societal ladder. And while you may interpret the client/patron/senator system as some kind of monarchical democracy, it's really not. You have fixed candidates, with fixed areas of control that are legally allowed to pay you for your vote, many of whom hold the same positions or as the corebook puts it: "most imperial politicians might as well be clones of each other". The Empire takes the main flaw of the Federation, that money can buy you power, and dials it up to 11.
As for the Emperor being able to persecute Senators, that is only the judical reality, it's not political reality. Power dynamics matter a lot and even the Emperor might not be able to properly persecute a Senator unless that Senator somehow loses their backing. And even then, the Emperor might just decide to not persecute them, based on his own preferences.
Add to that the obvious flaws in the imperial economy (aka slavery) as Ender pointed out, then sure as hell the legal immunity of Senators isn't the only flaw I can point out from this.
I get why slavery was implemented in the first place in the early days of the Empire. It had just secured it's independence against a massive enemy and did just not have the economic foundation to fall back onto. The Empire simply had not the same prerequisites as the Federation, it had no thousand year old base of economy, spread out over dozens of developed worlds and colonies, and it had not nearly the necessary population to provide a lot of cheap, willing manual labour for the growth necessary to support their new born Empire. Slavery is an obvious, simple and fast solution to that. Nobody blames them for that, the Federation would've most likely chosen a similiar approach in the same situation.
The thing is, the Empire isn't in that situation anymore. It could full well replace most of its slaves with willing, paid employees and machines. It simply chooses not to. It no longer has the luxury of extraordinary circumstances to justify mistreatment of its own citizens on that scale. I know, imperials are honor bound to treat their slaves respectfully etc etc, but that obviously isn't the case, it doesn't even seem to be a widespread practice if someone like Senator Torval allows mistreatment of the slaves they're responsible for on a literally planetary scale.
Imperial slavery is simply not a good system, much less a security net. It's an established way of acquiring cheap labour and the people in the Empire who actually have the power to change said system are either busy capitalizing on it or are so indifferent towards it that they don't care.
In the Federation, a common citizen could now form a party and get elected on such a basis, but that's impossible in the Empire as well. Heredical rule not only amongst the Emperor but also amongst it's aristocracy (in this case clients, patrons and Senators) have made the Empire politically stagnant to a frightening degree. In terms of differing opinions the Empire is a wasteland and those who dare to speak up are stomped out of existence or fall from grace in a way that silences them.
TLDR: Senators being above the law is by far not the only flaw I can point out about the Empire.
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06 Jul 2021, 5:24pm
Amata LireinAbout what? Why do you think ships by Gutamaya are so expensive and of much higher quality in comparisson to the mass-produced tin cans Core Dynamics is spitting out? Gutamaya is like Rolls-Royce in that regard.
Because Core Dynamics produces combat ships and not glorified flying hotels.
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