Elite: Lore

Amata Lirein
06 Jul 2021, 5:42pm
Rebecca HailIn the Federation, a common citizen could now form a party and get elected on such a basis, (...)


Bwahahahahahaaaa... this made me seriously laugh. You know as well as I do that the "democracy" inside the Federation only exists on paper. Without corporate support a common citizen can do even less then an Imperial Slave. See "Birthright Wars" for details.

Seriously: If E:D were RL I would hope to be able to live in the Empire and not in this US of A with all its flaws turned up to eleven called the "Federation". All official lore I have access to emphasises the fact that Imperial slaves do have rights, are getting well treated (enforced both by law and their sense of honor) and do not have to worry about not being able to sleep in a proper warm bed with a roof over their head and having enough to eat AND also get medical treatment when necessary.

Of all the three superpowers the Empire sounds like the best place to live in to me.
Isaiah Evanson
06 Jul 2021, 5:49pm
The Federation spies on its own citizens and has a track record of using violence to suppress independence movements.

The Empire has slaves - a slave is a slave no matter how well-treated you are. 

The Alliance turns a blind eye to dictatorships and authoritarian governments in their sphere of influence.

Of the three, I wouldn't willingly choose any of them.
Rebecca Hail
06 Jul 2021, 6:02pm
Amata Lirein
Rebecca HailIn the Federation, a common citizen could now form a party and get elected on such a basis, (...)



Bwahahahahahaaaa... this made me seriously laugh. You know as well as I do that the "democracy" inside the Federation only exists on paper. Without corporate support a common citizen can do even less then an Imperial Slave. See "Birthright Wars" for details.


The Federation has many flaws and while corporations sure as hell have their claws sunk deep in the political institutions, they don't control them entirely. There's little they can do if a citizens actually gets elected to the federal congress. On the same note it is extremely important to stay on the good side of the public, since the corporations can only do so much to get them re-elected.

I disagree with the notion that the Federations democracy exists only on paper. It's a flawed democracy, much like its real world counterpart and heavily influenced by corporations, but it's not a corporatocracy.

The Federation has a lot of flaws, it was designed to have these by the authors of the universe, but it has a significant degree of political freedom (much more than the Empire, how much is arguable especially in the light of the recent storyline), it doesn't use slavery and it offers social mobility to a much higher degree. It's not meant to be the perfect counterpart to the Empire. It's a flawed nation on its own, it's just that I can see at least a tiny speck of hope for the Federation, while I see none of that for the Empire.


Seriously: If E:D were RL I would hope to be able to live in the Empire and not in this US of A with all its flaws turned up to eleven called the "Federation". All official lore I have access to emphasises the fact that Imperial slaves do have rights, are getting well treated (enforced both by law and their sense of honor) and do not have to worry about not being able to sleep in a proper warm bed with a roof over their head and having enough to eat AND also get medical treatment when necessary.


I'd sure af live in the US before I'd attempt to live in a place like the Empire to which the counterpart would most likely be an amalgamation of Roman Empire and British Empire in the 19th century.
Morgan James
06 Jul 2021, 6:05pm
Isaiah Evanson Of the three, I wouldn't willingly choose any of them.


Same here.

Give me a nice independent agri co-op any day!
Wulthus
06 Jul 2021, 8:55pm
I see that everyone in their Fed vs Imp argument brings up technicalities about political systems of both factions as their main argumant, sadly ignoring ignoring another importannt factor: society and culture.

In Fed societies, human is a worm, an amimal designed to consume matter on one end, and poop it out in the other. Nothing else. No integrity. No values. No beauty. It's literally stated in the codex that their citizen's main "identity" lies within brand affiliation, and media consumption. Reductionist materialism. Human life's worth is measured by the ammount of matter it can produce and accumulate. Period. No direction, no purpose.

In contrast to that, Imperials hold some values as sacred and understand that humans have needs for something more than just satisfaction of mundane urges. Yes, their ships look like flying hotels, because humans feel better flying the flying hotels. Art, and beauty have a raison d'être within our lives, and empire understands this. You can't ust indulge on every psychoactive substance and product available to you, because your body was made a work of art too, and you should keep it that way. There is also a great emphasis on personal integrity, rather than personal gratification.

Think about it. Given these two backgrounds, where would you prefere to live? Which city you'd like to dwell in, and who would you prefare to have as your neighbour, or even a ruler?
Rebecca Hail
06 Jul 2021, 10:05pm
WulthusI see that everyone in their Fed vs Imp argument brings up technicalities about political systems of both factions as their main argumant, sadly ignoring ignoring another importannt factor: society and culture.

In Fed societies, human is a worm, an amimal designed to consume matter on one end, and poop it out in the other. Nothing else. No integrity. No values. No beauty. It's literally stated in the codex that their citizen's main "identity" lies within brand affiliation, and media consumption. Reductionist materialism. Human life's worth is measured by the ammount of matter it can produce and accumulate. Period. No direction, no purpose.


Neither federal society nor culture are as bleak as you describe it here. Sure it's not the most cultured place but it's not "No integrity. No values. No beauty." either. You can live a good life in the Federation, similiarly to how you can live a good life in the Empire.

Also describing a more than thousand year old nation as having no identity besides brand affiliation is pretty outlandish, too. Sure, the Federation is a dystopia, but if you can't see how the Empire is at least an equal dystopia then you're a little naive.


In contrast to that, Imperials hold some values as sacred and understand that humans have needs for something more than just satisfaction of mundane urges. Yes, their ships look like flying hotels, because humans feel better flying the flying hotels. Art, and beauty have a raison d'être within our lives, and empire understands this. You can't ust indulge on every psychoactive substance and product available to you, because your body was made a work of art too, and you should keep it that way. There is also a great emphasis on personal integrity, rather than personal gratification.

Think about it. Given these two backgrounds, where would you prefere to live? Which city you'd like to dwell in, and who would you prefare to have as your neighbour, or even a ruler?


Combat ships aren't build so you feel and look good while flying in them. They're build to keep you alive. And some people here ask themselves why the Empire gets its ass kicked all the time ... If your combat ships are build for comfort, you need to fire whoever constructs them.

Funnily enough drugs and psychoactive substances are much more frowned upon (and prohibited) in the Federation than in the Empire, I guess the body isn't that much of a work of art either.

I certainly wouldn't want the ruler or neighbour which would be happy to sell me off into slavery once I hit hard times. And please don't come again with the "Imperial slavery is a social security net" or "Imperial slaves will be treated well" tune again, it's getting a little stale.

Choosing where to live isn't solely a matter of society and culture, in fact those are rather minor parts compared to political freedom and inherent rights, at least in my opinion. And the Empire just so happens to not do that well in those two categories.
Jubei Himura
07 Jul 2021, 3:10am
Stab everyone and let the void sort 'em out?

Shit... I might be tilting to Anarchism...
Isaiah Evanson
07 Jul 2021, 3:43am
Good, Jubei, good!

Kill them.

Kill them all.
Amata Lirein
07 Jul 2021, 5:09am
Rebecca HailNeither federal society nor culture are as bleak as you describe it here. Sure it's not the most cultured place but it's not "No integrity. No values. No beauty." either. You can live a good life in the Federation, similiarly to how you can live a good life in the Empire.

(...)

Choosing where to live isn't solely a matter of society and culture, in fact those are rather minor parts compared to political freedom and inherent rights, at least in my opinion. And the Empire just so happens to not do that well in those two categories.


Living in a society where, if you fall on hard times, can go for a term of indentured servitude to work your debts off with no board to pay, including free healthcare, or a society in which, if you fall on hard times, get told that "You're not trying hard enough", even though you are already working four or five jobs and cannot make ends meet... sorry, but that's not really a hard call to make.

Last edit: 07 Jul 2021, 5:31am
Wulthus
07 Jul 2021, 7:55am
I'm sorry Becci, it's not me, it's them, actually, and that's all we're getting in terms of culture and values, so...



Also, Federation isn't a nation. It's a transnational superstate governed by a single body. Yes, it might be rich in cultures, and it's people may hold different values too, but origins of those cannot be traced to Federation itself, but to the many nations (and colonies?) the Federation engulfs. (Something the Alliance understood well and capitalised on )

I don't buy into you saying that culture and values of the place of your living matters little to you. Would you really prefere living among an Amish fellowship, in a Masai community in Kenya, or in any developed city in Pakistan if you were able to just tick the box every four years?

PS: Not sell you to slavery once you hit hard times, but sell yourself once the consequences of your irresponsible financial decisions hit you. Also, the narrative viewing the Feds as protectors of human liberties is getting a little stale, too. I mean, just look at our current CGs.
Sakashiro
07 Jul 2021, 8:04am
Amata LireinLiving in a society where, if you fall on hard times, can go for a term of indentured servitude to work your debts off with no board to pay, including free healthcare, or a society in which, if you fall on hard times, get told that "You're not trying hard enough", even though you are already working four or five jobs and cannot make ends meet... sorry, but that's not really a hard call to make.

The problem is that the latter system is pure fantasy. Why would someone employ a slave if the slave is more expensive and has more rights than a regular employee?
Rebecca Hail
07 Jul 2021, 8:20am
Amata Lirein
Living in a society where, if you fall on hard times, can go for a term of indentured servitude to work your debts off with no board to pay, including free healthcare, or a society in which, if you fall on hard times, get told that "You're not trying hard enough", even though you are already working four or five jobs and cannot make ends meet... sorry, but that's not really a hard call to make.


You still portray imperial slavery as it would've been nothing more than a few years of work without a pay in good conditions. Under some masters that may even be the case, I very much suspect that it won't be under the vast majority of them though. They want to profit of you, they show exactly the behaviour imps constantly use to criticize the Federation.

The trick to living in the Federation is choosing the right company to work for. That can go well and it can go wrong, much like imperial slavery, depending on who you get sold to. Ofc all of that without getting treated like a commodity.

Also you forget to include the aspect that you can very much be sold against your will into imperial slavery. Doing so takes not more than a court decision against you.

WulthusI'm sorry Becci, it's not me, it's them, actually, and that's all we're getting in terms of culture and values, so...

[img=640x344]https://i.ibb.co/M5N05qz/kekw.png[/img]


Funnily enough that quote doesn't confirm anything you said about federal culture in your prior post. It just says that federal citizens embrace corporate culture, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.


Also, Federation isn't a nation. It's a transnational superstate governed by a single body. Yes, it might be rich in cultures, and it's people may hold different values too, but origins of those cannot be traced to Federation itself, but to the many nations (and colonies?) the Federation engulfs. (Something the Alliance understood well and capitalised on )


The Federation absolutely is a nation. You also contradict yourself, in your prior post the Federation is a cultural wasteland, bleak of any beauty and values, and now it's suddenly rich in cultures. Being a melting pot isn't a bad thing.

I get what you're trying to say, but that would be like saying that the US has no distinct culture of its own, which is a statement I'd disagree with. It might be a mixture of cultures of different origins and not entirely natural, but that's not the same as having no culture at all.


I don't buy into you saying that culture and values of the place of your living matters little to you. Would you really prefere living among an Amish fellowship, in a Masai community in Kenya, or in any developed city in Pakistan if you were able to just tick the box every four years?


You're mistaken if you think that my understanding of democracy is just being able to tick a box every few years. There's a lot of aspects to that, that are inherently impossible for women to participate in in the places you mention partly because of their culture, partly because of their legal systems (or lack of enforcement thereof).

So no, I wouldn't want to live in any of the places you mention, but not just solely because of their culture, but mostly because of the lacking political freedoms and lacking inherent rights.


PS: Not sell you to slavery once you hit hard times, but sell yourself once the consequences of your irresponsible financial decisions hit you. Also, the narrative viewing the Feds as protectors of human liberties is getting a little stale, too. I mean, just look at our current CGs.


Military action against secessions is a tale as old as time. Wasn't there just lately something similiar in the Empire as well?

The Federation is no Utopia but the political situation and the inherent rights you're granted are way better than in the Empire.

Edit: fixed a typo

Last edit: 07 Jul 2021, 11:03am
Wulthus
07 Jul 2021, 10:34am
Not a contradiction Becci, a distinction. Distinction between what values and culture the Federation itself holds and promotes, versus the values and cultures of individual colonies. Distinction important enough to give birth to the Alliance... and Empire, actually.

I wouldn't also immediately equate democracy with egalitarianism and liberalism, as illiberal democracies exist.

I mentioned Pakistan specificly because it was founded as a secular republic... and it was a secular republic, untill Muslim League gained the majority of votes. It keeps the "Republic" in it's name up to this day, and has it's own "constitution". What am I trying to say? Rights and political systems stem from the culture and values of it's people, not the other way around.

... Just like the Federation, on paper, it's a beacon of liberty and human rights. In reality, it gets the tanks rolling whenever a colony refuses to participate in mass survelliance programme of it's citizens.
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 10:39am
Sakashiro
Amata LireinLiving in a society where, if you fall on hard times, can go for a term of indentured servitude to work your debts off with no board to pay, including free healthcare, or a society in which, if you fall on hard times, get told that "You're not trying hard enough", even though you are already working four or five jobs and cannot make ends meet... sorry, but that's not really a hard call to make.


The problem is that the latter system is pure fantasy. Why would someone employ a slave if the slave is more expensive and has more rights than a regular employee?


Indeed. If the cost and obligations of a citizen employee were less than a slave (remember you're responsible for employees health at work too, so you absolutely do have to care for employees), you would just employ citizens instead. Those dillusional on the Empire seem to think that to be a slave is simple like being employed at a decent 9-5 job with respectable salary but being unable to quit.
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 11:05am
Amata LireinAbout what? Why do you think ships by Gutamaya are so expensive and of much higher quality in comparisson to the mass-produced tin cans Core Dynamics is spitting out? Gutamaya is like Rolls-Royce in that regard.


Finally time to respond to that.

Let's go with your real-life comparison. Some of the cost of buying a RR is in the brand, sure (apple being a great example where that's a significant cost), but a lot of it is in material choice, production quality, tolerances etc. All that add real cost/value to the product and makes it harder and slower to produce. That's the main reason (other than brand/monopolies) that some things are more expensive: they're harder and more time consuming to produce. There are many easier examples, but let's continue with your RR.

Why do you think everyone today isn't driving one? Well, availability definitely would be in the way of everyone getting one, but everyone who could afford one could probably get one. The reason most of the cars you see on the streets aren't RR is because most people can't afford one! So what would happen when you reduce automation and use more human labour (that's slaves and clones, which is canon for the Empire): you drive costs up. Actual cost in man-hours needed to create something of value. Instead of 1 person overseeing an industrial robot, you'll have 10 people working to do the same work as the robot etc. That means cars cost more, and fewer can be produced (because they need more resources in time/humans). The result of this is simply fewer cars. Instead of most families having a car to get around like these days in the western society, you'd have maybe 1%. The remaining 99%? Well tough luck. You'll have to walk.

And this goes on through every aspect of society. It's not just cars. The main reason our standard of living have increased is that we've become more efficient. A few thousand years ago we had to spend the majority of our waking time gathering food! How many hours a day do you need to work to afford your food? Certainly not close to 12+ hours every single day. Specialisation, tools, mechanisms (for example water wheels driving a mill), machines, and automation (industrial robotics, conveyors etc) are all things that made us more efficient at performing a task, which produce more wealth because the same thing can be done more efficiently. The Empire have regressed from using mahines and automation in favour of human labour. If they're to have the same wealth (and here I'm not talking of cash but quality products) as the Federation, they need to do -more- work. Who need to do the work machines and automation do in -all other parts of human space-? The slaves and clones. Lots of them.

The empire -need- the slaves or their entire society crash. It's not a safety net: it's the entire foundation that keeps it working. And they need to keep the numbers up to maintain their wealth.

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