Burstar

Xeknos I'd also need to see some evidence to back up the "Imp ships outclass Fed ships" argument.

I have a better idea:

Imp. Eagle vs. (NA)
FGS vs (NA)
FAS vs. Clipper
Corvette vs. Cutter

You come up with an argument that claims the Federal equivalent is better than the Imp one in any of these pairings and we'll talk.

Xeknos Unfortunately, that isn't quite how this works: the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You want to claim that Imp Ships outclass Fed Ships, so you need to be able to prove that. Instead, it's probably down to another case of aesthetics - Imp ships tend to be sleeker and favor shields, while Fed ships are more, uh, workhorses and tend to favor hull tanking. It's okay if you don't like how the fed ships look/fly, but you'd probably serve your point better by just admitting that from the get go.

Burstar

Rebecca Hail I know that you're capable of having a civil discussion, so please stop acting like a condescending prick.

Then actually contribute to the discussion by having a counter argument of your own instead of just saying "i don't like your reasoning behind your simple at least plausibly supported opinion that I've actually forgotten and can't be bothered to go back and re read but respect is important to me true story".

As for the station conditions: they are affected by in game modifiers like states, population satisfaction, and economy size. If you haven't noticed this that's on you. Being an Empire station is one of those modifiers that improves Station condition / announcer politeness etc that Drew Wagar has commented on in the past as part of the good immersive elements of the Elite world. I'm not going to go digging for it though i suspect it's in teh 'history of' video. Believe me or not, I don't care. Just pay attention in the future and when it clicks send me a thank you message.

BurstarMountain of admittedly imperfect evidence that all points to an obviously unverifiable conclusion, but is a relatively safe bet, or nothing but 'it's imperfect evidence or not verifiable'.

Not being sure something is right is way different than being positive it's wrong. I have reasons that support my belief, you can only point to flaws in the reasoning with zero counter evidence.

Actually there is one very strong piece of evidence that the Empire has the better economy: It's been consistently shrinking at a much slower rate than the Federation has relative to size and in fact the Empire is today larger in both system count and total population.

So... how much anecdotal evidence needs to pile up in one direction before you say "hey, maybe there's something to this"?

Knightwolf 1785Yeah, the Empire doesn't like "differences" and would go with everyone being a freaking clone. *shivers* So cold and boring for an ideal civilization view.

Dr. Doom at least let people be themselves. To a point that is. >.>

What are you even arguing when you say "better economy" if you're basing them on employment and quality of life? What I'm arguing is gross domestic product and industrial output, not welfare and general prosperity.

Rebecca Hail There are three key details of this argument that you conveniently ignore:

1) The Empire is shrinking as well.

2) Systems don't carry the same economic value. The mere fact that Empire and Federation are shrinking isn't a base for any assumption about their economic state. If Kamtschatka would secede from Russia it would lose quite a bit of territory, but not much in terms of economic value. In terms of population loss, it matters how dense settled the lost systems were to make a basic judgement about the lost economic value of these.

3) This is shrinkage has absolutely nothing to do with the economy of the superpowers and how they compare to each other. It's player actions against both superpowers, since players are the ones actually flipping the systems. If this argument would hold any value, the Alliance would have the best economy by far. That's entirely possible, since you have still not defined what you mean when you say "good economy" or "better economy".

Wulthus

What are you even arguing when you say "better economy" if you're basing them on employment and quality of life? What I'm arguing is gross domestic product and industrial output, not welfare and general prosperity.

I think he's basing his argument on this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy

If someone bases their arguments on wrong concepts, it's you. What you're trying to say is that the Federation has better industry, not economy... and probably it has. Just like the Soviet union, barerly able to satisfy basic needs of their citizens, but able to keep the tanks rolling.

Burstar
It is thought out well. You just refuse to see it. We do not have access to verifiable concrete objective data on the comparative GDP of the respective superpowers. Until we do we MUST look at related data and make educated guesses while acknowledging the data is imperfect. I should not need to define 'economy'. It's a well understood concept that because we cannot see the data for we'll just have to settle for this definition.

My point about the shrinking sizes did not state that both economies were not shrinking. What I did say is that the Federation's size is shrinking faster, by percentage even, than the Empire's is. States losing territory (possibly even due to conquest) is a strong indicator of a weak economy and it is reasonable to suggest that the rate at which territory is lost is related to how much weaker that economy is.

As to the 'quality' definition: what do you think it means? Which ship would you objectively rather use in the game when you look at the sum of all their statistics and their relative performance versus each other. Are you really this obtuse?

SakashiroAre we really arguing over two fictional economies?

Rebecca Hail The sum of stats just means nothing, if you don't recognize that ships are build for different purposes and have strengths and weaknesses depending on their purpose. Obviously federal ships are "outclassed" if you use them for a multirole purpose, because that's simply not what they're made for. Even the FDS, which is arguably the most "multirole" of all federal ships, skews strongly towards being purposed for combat.

I'd objectively rather use federal ships because they suit my playstyle more. You don't need to be a genius to see that the Federation produces the better combat ships.

Rebecca Hail You don't need to define economy and I never asked you to do that.

Rebecca HailYou still haven't defined what you mean when you say "better economy" or "ship quality".

Burstar

Rebecca Hail The sum of stats just means nothing, if you don't recognize that ships are build for different purposes and have strengths and weaknesses depending on their purpose. Obviously federal ships are "outclassed" if you use them for a multirole purpose, because that's simply not what they're made for. Even the FDS, which is arguably the most "multirole" of all federal ships, skews strongly towards being purposed for combat.

I'd objectively rather use federal ships because they suit my playstyle more. You don't need to be a genius to see that the Federation produces the better combat ships.

You know for someone who insists on hard verifiable facts as valid support for arguments only you sure immediately jump to subjective opinion when it suits you. No one cares about your objective subjective preference for Fed ships because of 'your playstyle'. So why on earth do you think that Fed ships are better for combat? The Clipper beats the FAS in almost all stats for all roles including combat, and the only way the Corvette is better than a Cutter is in pure PVE where you don't actually have to face any real threats.

Rebecca Hail You don't need to define economy and I never asked you to do that.

Rebecca HailYou still haven't defined what you mean when you say "better economy" or "ship quality".

You're right. I didn't realize you needed the definition for 'better' too. My bad.
bet·ter1 /ˈbedər/

adjective
1. of a more excellent or effective type or quality.

So, I'm going to conclude by your complete unwillingness to do even this most basic amount of due diligence to be considered worth bothering with, that you aren't worth continuing to do so. I'll just conclude by summing up:

Why do I get the impression the Empire has a better Economy than the Federation?

The Federation territorial control (in both systems and population) has been consistently crumbling at a much greater proportional rate than the Empire's decline and is now even the smallest of the two Superpowers,
The Empire has more citizens by all accounts living better lives (yes, even the slaves who have codified rights and exist in a culture that greatly condemns their mistreatment),
The Empire has better quality ships (statistically speaking) for every tier there is a counterpart in the Federation, indicative of better science/technology/resources in general,
FDev at least had a policy of giving the Empire better appearances in both the game and literature (though Odyssey has thrown a wrench in that),
The Empire has handily won every Greater War with the Federation in its history.

I am satisfied that the sum of this anecdotal evidence is enough to support my conclusion. Particularly considering the glaring lack of any evidence (hard or not) to the contrary. I do not care if you disagree with my assessment. I only care if you have evidence, whether it supports or refutes this, that I may have been unaware of.

Again, I am not a fan of ANY of the superpowers. I just call it as I see it.

Burstar the only way the Corvette is better than a Cutter is in pure PVE where you don't actually have to face any real threats.

Burstar

Xeknos Unfortunately, that isn't quite how this works: the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim. You want to claim that Imp Ships outclass Fed Ships, so you need to be able to prove that. Instead, it's probably down to another case of aesthetics - Imp ships tend to be sleeker and favor shields, while Fed ships are more, uh, workhorses and tend to favor hull tanking. It's okay if you don't like how the fed ships look/fly, but you'd probably serve your point better by just admitting that from the get go.

Nice try. The difference in quality is evident in these comparisons to anyone that understand the gameplay and can do an objective comparison between them. I need to see where your misguided beliefs come from before I waste my breathe any further on this. Until then, you can just accept my opinion as that of an expert or learn the hard way.