Elite: Lore

Sakashiro
07 Jul 2021, 2:13pm
A C EnderTo clarify; you mean that the concept of slave/CLONE labour being more expansive than free labour is unrealistic, right?

Yes. There must be significant downsides to being a slave rather than an employee, otherwise slavery makes no economic sense. And if there are such downsides, it is Orwellian doublespeak to misrepresent Imperial slavery as a social safety net, and Federal employment as "wage slavery".
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 2:26pm
Rho TefnutetI like how everyone say Imperial Slavery is bad and why same stuff isn't done by robots...


This seem partly aimed to my argument, so I'll respond.

I think you're missing the point of the arguement. In the rest of the galaxy, there are tasks that are performed by industrial robots and machines. In the Empire, the work of those robots and machines are replaced by manual labour by slaves/CLONES.

Robotics are used to make tasks faster, cheaper, safer, higher quality, or more consistent. Often there's several of those at play at once, most notably faster and more efficient. They often replace highly repetitive tasks, where humans will make mistakes due to the highly repetitive nature and lack of stimulation. They also replace tasks which are deemed too dangerous for a human. The danger aspect doesn't have to be motivated by care for human life either: it costs time and resources to replace someone, and you lose productivity.

The empire have replaced many of those machines with slaves/CLONES. Those constitute a large of the slave workforce. If the Empire doesn't have enough slaves, the industry will stop working. Food, medicines, common goods etc will all be affected. Because the Empire rely on the slaves, they are required to maintain a large population of slaves. If they don't, the Empire will crash and burn.

The direct result of how the Empire economic and industrial machine work is that slaves need to be created to meet demand. Remember how senators set taxes for those below them? You need a few more slaves, just hike up the taxes of the lowest caste and you'll get "volunteers" in no time. And the work they'll be doing isn't glamourous feeding grapes to a rich mistress; they're literally slaving in factories. They're taken care of, sure. You don't want your workers to die (much), but providing shelter and a decent meal is sufficient. Doesn't have to be dirty terrible conditions, but you have no wage and no freedom to choose.


Rho Tefnutet... while kinda ignore the fact Federation has extreme gaps between working and middle class. [...] To me, Empire seems like a better choice because whatever form it is, it's still an actual safety


You don't think the Empire have extreme gaps between working and middle class? What evidence do you have that all or most unskilled labour in the Empire is likely carried out by slaves/CLONES? Given that the slaves are cheaper in employer costs, as a free working class person, that is the wages you have to compete with. If you don't acquire a skill above the slave/CLONE bracket quickly you're likely to end up a slave yourself to save yourself from your "shameful debt".

Safety net? Sure, of sorts. If you consider it safe to be prevented from death and instead forced to work boring, filthy, dangerous jobs no free person would accept at below minimum wage.


You seem to have swallowed the Empire propaganda whole. You don't hear about the conditions of the actual working class/slaves. The things you read and hear are from the perspective of the aristocracy, the rich and powerful. I would not pick the Empire.
Rebecca Hail
07 Jul 2021, 2:34pm
Wulthus*Sigh*

No, saying in one post that the Federation has no culture or values.

Well, then, read my post again, a I didn't state the Federation has no culture. Althugh yes, I did say it has no values, my bad. They do have values, like hyperindividualism. What I should have said instead was no "higher values".



Yes, it might be rich in cultures, and it's people may hold different values too, but origins of those cannot be traced to Federation itself, but to the many nations (and colonies?) the Federation engulfs.


That's essentially you saying that the Federation has no culture. Come on Wulthus, is it really necessary to twist words?


and saying in the next that it is actually rich in culture because it has a ton of diverse colonies is a contradiction. These colonies are fundamentally a part of the Federation, their culture is by extension part of the Federations culture.

Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that the population of the Federation has no national identity, which is laughable considering that it's the oldest superpower of the three.



I believe that Mr. Mahon might strongly disagree with you on that statement.


Even Mahon would agree that federal coreworlds are without a doubt part of the Federation.


Illiberal democracies are more often than not fronts for undemocratic regimes. They don't go hand in hand with political freedom and inherent rights, so if I say democracy it should be quite obvious for anyone who's not willfully misinterpreting me to understand what I mean.



Precisely, like the Federation in it's current state. Also, don't just assume bad intentions outright. I think it's better to be precise about the terminology we're using in a debate. What you mean by saying democracy is liberal democracy. The disitinction is important.


Nah, again, the Federation is a flawed democracy, not an authoritarian state with a democratic facade.

Also no one says democracy and means "illiberal democracy".


Like, what even is your point here? If a large amount of idiots vote for idiotic parties, they get a large serving of idiocy as national policy? Yes, democracies aren't flawless, you can corrupt them and that has happened often in history. Young democracies can easily be overthrown and old democracies will have their system eroded over time.



So the system itself is flawed, and prone to instability, right?


As much as any democracy, considering the age of the Federation it's ridiculous to write it off as unstable.


We kinda do, because if the Federation wasn't so unbearably flawed and hypoctitical, there would be no Empire in the first place. Also, Amatha did respond to your points.


Amata literally deflected an entire post about the flaws of the Empire with a single line about the Federation. Whataboutism about the Federation generally seems to be the way to go for imps when the Empire is criticized.



Of course it wouldn't, and it's not. That's the point. Federation is just a failed, old idea made new. Of course the Empire would come down and crush such rebellion, but the thing is, it does not try to portray itself as a shining beacon of liberty in the galaxy, but as a beacon of safety, stability.

Were Azaldashians really given any other choice?


Compared to the Empire it kinda is a beacon of liberty. And the Empire being a beacon of safety and stability is very debatable. It's safe and stable until you dare utter an opinion your elites don't like or run out of money.
Rebecca Hail
07 Jul 2021, 2:38pm
Amata Lirein
Because it's "just" a few years without pay in good conditions?


If it were, Torvals mining slaves wouldn't have launched several planetwide uprisings against her. As Ender pointed out, the entire system is only sustainable if the slaves get exploited to a degree you can't call "good conditions" with a clean conscience.

As for the GalNet article, the Empire clearing itself of all guilt, what a surprise.


Hmm... being a slave who gets treated with dignity and being helped to get back on your feet or being a poor Fedneck who gets treated like shit by the people around you because you're a failure?


Again, it's debatable how imperial slaves get treated and while it's certainly not great being poor in the Federation you at least can't be sold to the lowest bidder.


When I made you aware of this I also pointed out that is usually a punishment for those who were caught mistreating slaves...


You didn't make me aware of it, that was the Corebook, which clearly states: " in the Empire, citizens can voluntarily or judicially become a slave in order to repay a debt."

Woops, can't pay? Here's a court order that lets me sell you into slavery. What a shame.

Something Ender pointed out as well.
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 2:40pm
Isaiah EvansonNah. Really. Because this discussion about social and culture differences, advantages, etc., doesn't address the real elephant in the room: that the three major superpowers, in their efforts to gain advantageous positions on the others, have engaged in wars that have cost thousands of lives and displaced millions. 

You keep trying to split hairs over who is better or worse but ignore the similarities - the biggest one of all being that innocent people are almost always caught in the crossfire between the superpowers.


I'm trying to get the Imps of their high horse and admit that their society also is shit, definitely comparable to the Feds. Who is better or worse is splitting hairs, agree with that. They're all shit.
Morgan James
07 Jul 2021, 3:00pm
Synthya Wylderthe Empire an exaggeration of the UK&EU


I'm not sure how there's any possible analogy there. How did you come to that?

Now, the EU and Alliance, yes I can see similarities in that it's a bunch of sovereign states coming together in a confederal union for economic, military and social benefit.
Jubei Himura
07 Jul 2021, 3:58pm
A C EnderI'm trying to get the Imps of their high horse and admit that their society also is shit, definitely comparable to the Feds. Who is better or worse is splitting hairs, agree with that. They're all shit.

I think by any Imperial saying "It's not perfect", is an agreement that it may not be better. It is simply their fictional preference of what flawed government they prefer given the fictional choices.
Rebecca Hail
07 Jul 2021, 4:12pm
Jubei Himura
A C EnderI'm trying to get the Imps of their high horse and admit that their society also is shit, definitely comparable to the Feds. Who is better or worse is splitting hairs, agree with that. They're all shit.


I think by any Imperial saying "It's not perfect", is an agreement that it may not be better. It is simply their fictional preference of what flawed government they prefer given the fictional choices.


Who let this reasonable guy in? Listen, dude, in here we die on our hills.

+ you can confirm to everyone here that I'm cute and innocent.
Meowers
07 Jul 2021, 4:20pm
Ah, okay then, I'll just go and die on my own hill of battling superpower factions in independent worlds.
(and it's really a hill)
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 6:24pm
Jubei Himura

I think by any Imperial saying "It's not perfect", is an agreement that it may not be better. It is simply their fictional preference of what flawed government they prefer given the fictional choices.


That's the part I don't get. I'd understand if their character struggle/refuse to admit that the power they follow isn't better. But in here we aren't our characters, were players here. There's no gain in trying to be morally superior, so why reject reality?

Take Ender. He will try to justify why he's supporting Archon Delaine, and is generally hostile towards the Empire. Do I as a player think they deserve that, or that my character is "better"? Of course not. The fact is; the only reason my character follow him is because I as a player like spiders, and Archon Delaine got a spider figure. Then I make up his reasons for being where he is.

None should judge anyone for the moral choices and convictions of their character. On the other hand, if you as a player try to justify the morality of your character, I very much will hold you as a player to all available evidence. For some reason, people witch characters supporting the Empire seem to a higher degree see their choice (OOC) as morally superior. I don't know why.
Rho Tefnutet
07 Jul 2021, 6:46pm
Well, the reason why I see Empire as better choice - and not necessarily superior - is mostly caused by the senselessness of the system I live and almost mirrored what was happening in Federation. Even if it's not as dystopian - it has a lot of really concerning hints that would make employers from here feel right home in something ran by Zachary Hudson. Not even government change fixed everything since it's a problem that had been running ever since late 1990s due to extreme businessmen lobby in favor of extorting working and lower middle classes...

...and that's where I need to stop, because that would be going into real life politics. I can just say what made Federation a questionable place to live was averted from happening over here.

Why I have no liking to Alliance? They accept Communist governments so I guess that answers this question, since my own country was screwed over by Soviet puppet state for 50 years. If it wasn't enough only recently, for the last five years, we started to recover from that political system's faults.
Rebecca Hail
07 Jul 2021, 6:56pm
Let's not get ahead of ourselves for having a lore discussion. Even I, with all my zealousness for the Federation, only argue this from a half serious PoV.

Actually I mostly do it because I enjoy it when the Imps get mad.

A lot of the time IC and OOC get mixed in here, so let's not conclude from the opinions represented here to the person behind those opinions.
Isaiah Evanson
07 Jul 2021, 6:58pm
Well, that was an entertaining read nevertheless.

I got some laughs from the moral posturing but at least people are passionate about the lore, which, ironically, is more than what we can say about Frontier right now.
Rho Tefnutet
07 Jul 2021, 7:06pm
Yeah, let us get hired by Frontier because we are better in discussing on how lore is supposed to work, haha.
Jubei Himura
07 Jul 2021, 8:01pm
*hic*
Rebecca is cute and innocent
*hic*

F***!
It's been, what... Four years? And that damn pill you slipped me is still working!

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