Elite: Lore

A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 11:09am
Wulthus
PS: Not sell you to slavery once you hit hard times, but sell yourself once the consequences of your irresponsible financial decisions hit you. Also, the narrative viewing the Feds as protectors of human liberties is getting a little stale, too. I mean, just look at our current CGs.

"No sir, you're just irresponsible with money. The system is definitely not designed to keep you down and push people into slavery. Take my filthy rich word for it."
Rebecca Hail
07 Jul 2021, 11:14am
WulthusNot a contradiction Becci, a distinction. Distinction between what values and culture the Federation itself holds and promotes, versus the values and cultures of individual colonies. Distinction important enough to give birth to the Alliance... and Empire, actually.


No, saying in one post that the Federation has no culture or values and saying in the next that it is actually rich in culture because it has a ton of diverse colonies is a contradiction. These colonies are fundamentally a part of the Federation, their culture is by extension part of the Federations culture.

Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that the population of the Federation has no national identity, which is laughable considering that it's the oldest superpower of the three.


I wouldn't also immediately equate democracy with egalitarianism and liberalism, as illiberal democracies exist.


Illiberal democracies are more often than not fronts for undemocratic regimes. They don't go hand in hand with political freedom and inherent rights, so if I say democracy it should be quite obvious for anyone who's not willfully misinterpreting me to understand what I mean.


I mentioned Pakistan specificly because it was founded as a secular republic... and it was a secular republic, untill Muslim League gained the majority of votes. It keeps the "Republic" in it's name up to this day, and has it's own "constitution". What am I trying to say? Rights and political systems stem from the culture and values of it's people, not the other way around.


The rather gross oversimplification of history in that part of the world aside, Pakistan is certainly not what you think of when someone says democracy. It's a child of unfortunate circumstances.

Like, what even is your point here? If a large amount of idiots vote for idiotic parties, they get a large serving of idiocy as national policy? Yes, democracies aren't flawless, you can corrupt them and that has happened often in history. Young democracies can easily be overthrown and old democracies will have their system eroded over time.

The Federation itself isn't flawless, on the opposite, it's a prime example of a flawed democracy. But even then it's political system is much more free and open than the Empires political system. The fact that you and Amata feel the need to constantly deflect back to criticism of the Federation without really responding to the points made about the Empire is quite telling.


... Just like the Federation, on paper, it's a beacon of liberty and human rights. In reality, it gets the tanks rolling whenever a colony refuses to participate in mass survelliance programme of it's citizens.


No nation on earth (and beyond) will accept a unilateral secession, so please don't pretend that this is somehow unique to the Federation. Any state, except for the most disarmed, pacifist state, will respond with force against such an attempt, the Empire evidently included.
Wulthus
07 Jul 2021, 11:43am
A C Ender
Wulthus
PS: Not sell you to slavery once you hit hard times, but sell yourself once the consequences of your irresponsible financial decisions hit you. Also, the narrative viewing the Feds as protectors of human liberties is getting a little stale, too. I mean, just look at our current CGs.


"No sir, you're just irresponsible with money. The system is definitely not designed to keep you down and push people into slavery. Take my filthy rich word for it."


Wulthus
07 Jul 2021, 12:30pm
*Sigh*

No, saying in one post that the Federation has no culture or values.
Well, then, read my post again, a I didn't state the Federation has no culture. Althugh yes, I did say it has no values, my bad. They do have values, like hyperindividualism. What I should have said instead was no "higher values".

and saying in the next that it is actually rich in culture because it has a ton of diverse colonies is a contradiction. These colonies are fundamentally a part of the Federation, their culture is by extension part of the Federations culture.

Your entire argument is based upon the assumption that the population of the Federation has no national identity, which is laughable considering that it's the oldest superpower of the three.


I believe that Mr. Mahon might strongly disagree with you on that statement.

Illiberal democracies are more often than not fronts for undemocratic regimes. They don't go hand in hand with political freedom and inherent rights, so if I say democracy it should be quite obvious for anyone who's not willfully misinterpreting me to understand what I mean.


Precisely, like the Federation in it's current state. Also, don't just assume bad intentions outright. I think it's better to be precise about the terminology we're using in a debate. What you mean by saying democracy is liberal democracy. The disitinction is important.

Like, what even is your point here? If a large amount of idiots vote for idiotic parties, they get a large serving of idiocy as national policy? Yes, democracies aren't flawless, you can corrupt them and that has happened often in history. Young democracies can easily be overthrown and old democracies will have their system eroded over time.


So the system itself is flawed, and prone to instability, right?

The fact that you and Amata feel the need to constantly deflect back to criticism of the Federation without really responding to the points made about the Empire is quite telling.


We kinda do, because if the Federation wasn't so unbearably flawed and hypoctitical, there would be no Empire in the first place. Also, Amatha did respond to your points.

No nation on earth (and beyond) will accept a unilateral secession, so please don't pretend that this is somehow unique to the Federation. Any state, except for the most disarmed, pacifist state, will respond with force against such an attempt, the Empire evidently included.


Of course it wouldn't, and it's not. That's the point. Federation is just a failed, old idea made new. Of course the Empire would come down and crush such rebellion, but the thing is, it does not try to portray itself as a shining beacon of liberty in the galaxy, but as a beacon of safety, stability.

Were Azaldashians really given any other choice?
Wulthus
07 Jul 2021, 12:37pm
Sakashiro
Amata LireinLiving in a society where, if you fall on hard times, can go for a term of indentured servitude to work your debts off with no board to pay, including free healthcare, or a society in which, if you fall on hard times, get told that "You're not trying hard enough", even though you are already working four or five jobs and cannot make ends meet... sorry, but that's not really a hard call to make.


The problem is that the latter system is pure fantasy. Why would someone employ a slave if the slave is more expensive and has more rights than a regular employee?


Willingly? Not a single reason ofc. However, you are simply forced to got for it, as it's a state-sanctioned way of dealing with debtors, and the law.
Synthya Wylder
07 Jul 2021, 12:56pm
Even before I started playing E:D, I was looking at the 3 major superpowers, & saw approximate equivalencies to our own in RL.

Based on that, I commented to a friend already playing E:D & experienced with the game that I thought that if it was required to do so, I'd have to align myself with the Alliance.

His response was that I didn't have to join or ally myself with any of them & that I could be Independent. I was relieved to find that this was true, & so I remain Independent. Each of the major powers in E:D leaves lots to be desired, but hey, E:D itself is a game based in a very dystopian universe.

If I were to draw an equivalency to RL political, economic & social systems, I'd have to say that the Federation seems to be an exaggeration of the USA (hey, Hudson even bears a striking resemblance to Trump!), the Empire an exaggeration of the UK&EU, & the Alliance, a very rough approximation of a wide variety of many of the notable powers of the rest of the world, reflected in the varied Alliance systems.

(BY NO MEANS am I trying to start a fire re: RL countries or their gov'ts, but just used a comparison to what I saw in the game lore & discussion.)

I think I'm qualified to criticize the USA, particularly on their* spying on its citizens, namely, the NSA & its PRISM program. I see a parallel in the Federation, & those citizens who seem comfortable with trading some liberties for more security.

(While technically illegal & requiring warrants, the US gov't has arranged with its allies to do each others' spying on their respective citizens & then trading that info between them. That's their legal loophole for warrantless intrusions into citizen's private communications, etc.)

As to each of the major powers in E:D, such as in RL, everything looks great in theory & on paper. Again as in RL, the reality & potential distortion & abuse of those styles of gov't is inevitable.

My conclusion is, as an Independent, Big Gov't = Bad, something to be avoided, whatever the flavor of the Kool-Aid.
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 1:01pm
Wulthus
Sakashiro
Amata LireinLiving in a society where, if you fall on hard times, can go for a term of indentured servitude to work your debts off with no board to pay, including free healthcare, or a society in which, if you fall on hard times, get told that "You're not trying hard enough", even though you are already working four or five jobs and cannot make ends meet... sorry, but that's not really a hard call to make.



The problem is that the latter system is pure fantasy. Why would someone employ a slave if the slave is more expensive and has more rights than a regular employee?



Willingly? Not a single reason ofc. However, you are simply forced to got for it, as it's a state-sanctioned way of dealing with debtors, and the law.

No they're not.

Look, even if there's a law that you have to accept slaves in your company (which there may be), that's still not true. No free employee would accept a salary which is lower than the slave. And even if they did, the supposed (propaganda) point of slavery for the system is to work of your debt. If you cost the employer less as an employee, it would be more effective to have them as a regular employee instead of a slave!

The slave/clone labour have to be cheaper than the willing labour, or they wouldn't benefit anyone.

I'd like to remind everyone that I don't think the Feds are good. But I don't see anyone, even fed, claim that they're all good. But you constantly see the Empire supporters claiming how great/much better the Empire is, but I've demonstrated several times in my resent posts how they can not be, and anyone who claim they are is either willfully ignorant or activity spreading propaganda (which is totally fine IC, but this is a lore discussion board, we're all OOC here). I'm trying to counter the OOC idea that some people have regarding the Empire as being better than the feds.

If I can't make you see the reality about slaves - how about we address the even bigger elephant in the room: CLONES!
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 1:04pm
"The Empire relies less on mechanical technology such as robotics and artificial intelligence, and instead uses Imperial Slaves and CLONES to do the work which machines usually perform in other parts of the universe."
Sakashiro
07 Jul 2021, 1:09pm
WulthusWillingly? Not a single reason ofc. However, you are simply forced to got for it, as it's a state-sanctioned way of dealing with debtors, and the law.

If creditors were required by law to accept delinquent debtors as slaves under conditions beneficial to the debtors, no one would lend money any more, because debtors would simply default on their debt and tell their creditor, sorry, I'm broke, now take care of me and provide me with free housing, healthcare, food etc.

No economy can work like that, which is why the concept is unrealistic.
A C Ender
07 Jul 2021, 1:35pm
Sakashiro
WulthusWillingly? Not a single reason ofc. However, you are simply forced to got for it, as it's a state-sanctioned way of dealing with debtors, and the law.


If creditors were required by law to accept delinquent debtors as slaves under conditions beneficial to the debtors, no one would lend money any more, because debtors would simply default on their debt and tell their creditor, sorry, I'm broke, now take care of me and provide me with free housing, healthcare, food etc.

No economy can work like that, which is why the concept is unrealistic.


To clarify; you mean that the concept of slave/CLONE labour being more expansive than free labour is unrealistic, right?
Rho Tefnutet
07 Jul 2021, 1:52pm
I like how everyone say Imperial Slavery is bad and why same stuff isn't done by robots... while kinda ignore the fact Federation has extreme gaps between working and middle class. Said gap does exist in real post-Soviet puppet state's democracies which are or were ran by politicians with businesses and pure corporate interest. To me, Empire seems like a better choice because whatever form it is, it's still an actual safety net and while everyone say it's your own fault - in majority of cases it is. However, in the Federation, we have Zachary Hudson who attacks people who don't have a job despite them trying very hard - and there is no safety net that would help them to bounce out of poverty which isn't homelessness or starvation but inability to change your own economical situation. And that's the major reason why ideology of my character is anti-Hudsonist, given even if Uncle Zach is indeed true about that he went from the bottom to the top - how many other Zachary Hudsons failed, lived and died in the lowest possible economical social status? Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Millions? Billions?

In the end, Zachary Hudson is no different to Zemina Torval who says that not everyone are meant for greatness. Difference is, Zachary Hudson covers that with blame on nonexistent laziness while rejecting idea that some people need actual handicap due to something I call "environmental variables".

That said, take it with grain of the salt because I grew up in society where employment is simply broken due to a lot of factors and currently I am unemployed for third (fifth, if we count in another degree to expand my field) year, despite extensive search for a job. Not only in my degree but also in adjunct fields and all other jobs requiring so-called "office jobs". (For the context, I am unfit for physical jobs due to health.)

This is why I have a very negative approach to "just try hard enough to succeed, otherwise you are a loser", said over again and again by Hudson and expressed widely through his policies.
Isaiah Evanson
07 Jul 2021, 1:59pm
So who has killed more people in the last six years, the Federation, the Empire, or the Alliance?
Wulthus
07 Jul 2021, 2:03pm
Them pesky Gankers, ofc.
Isaiah Evanson
07 Jul 2021, 2:10pm
Nah. Really. Because this discussion about social and culture differences, advantages, etc., doesn't address the real elephant in the room: that the three major superpowers, in their efforts to gain advantageous positions on the others, have engaged in wars that have cost thousands of lives and displaced millions. 

You keep trying to split hairs over who is better or worse but ignore the similarities - the biggest one of all being that innocent people are almost always caught in the crossfire between the superpowers.
Amata Lirein
07 Jul 2021, 2:12pm
Rebecca Hail
Amata Lirein
Living in a society where, if you fall on hard times, can go for a term of indentured servitude to work your debts off with no board to pay, including free healthcare, or a society in which, if you fall on hard times, get told that "You're not trying hard enough", even though you are already working four or five jobs and cannot make ends meet... sorry, but that's not really a hard call to make.



You still portray imperial slavery as it would've been nothing more than a few years of work without a pay in good conditions. Under some masters that may even be the case, I very much suspect that it won't be under the vast majority of them though. They want to profit of you, they show exactly the behaviour imps constantly use to criticize the Federation.


Because it's "just" a few years without pay in good conditions?

No serious violations concerning the treatment of Imperial Slaves were uncovered, though many warnings were issued to those who were found holding slaves beyond their fixed term of service. Imperial slaves found in these circumstances were restored to full citizenship and reimbursed for the labour they performed beyond their established term.

Source


The trick to living in the Federation is choosing the right company to work for. That can go well and it can go wrong, much like imperial slavery, depending on who you get sold to. Ofc all of that without getting treated like a commodity.


Hmm... being a slave who gets treated with dignity and being helped to get back on your feet or being a poor Fedneck who gets treated like shit by the people around you because you're a failure?

Also you forget to include the aspect that you can very much be sold against your will into imperial slavery. Doing so takes not more than a court decision against you.


When I made you aware of this I also pointed out that is usually a punishment for those who were caught mistreating slaves...

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