Elite: Lore

A C Ender
01 Jul 2021, 12:47pm
XeknosThis entire premise is flawed. People don't become lazy when their basic needs are met. You enable them to pursue their passions and dreams. The greed that drives late-stage capitalism has been a far bigger threat to human development than anything the socialists/communists could dream up. Our lack of regard for basic humanity is tearing us apart.


I'm going to use this to get back to the actual lore discussion on life of low-caste people in the empire.

The entire point about being lazy is completely missing the point. If you don't need to work, why would you do something which you don't enjoy? That could be delivering goods, cleaning, door/telephone salesman, customer support etc. I'm sure there are plenty of people who work in those example roles who enjoy them, but I'm equally as sure as many people who work in low-qualified work doesn't enjoy them.

They may chase their passions and dreams, make music, draw art, play games, go exploring. Anything -they- dream of. But many of those things have no benefit for the society. The "lazyness" is not lack of doing something (that's apathy), the lazyness are not facing and doing things you don't want to do. I don't want to do dishes after dinner, but I do it because someone got to, and so on. Which is where the Empire come in: They don't use robotics to any large degree (fed does), and instead utilise slaves/cheap labour to do that. Their industrial factories doesn't have robotics doing the hard work, they use cheap human labour. Sure, your needs are met as a slave (or 1 rung up but arguably the same), you survive. But do you think that's what they want to do if given the choice? Work in a factory all day? But someone got to do it. And I'm sure that's not done by people with wealth and contacts in the Empire, and I'm also sure that there's not much choice in the matter. I would be very surprised if there weren't plenty of debt-traps for the poor to ensure that a sufficient population of slaves can be maintained which keeps the empire going.

Think I'm wrong? Okay, then explain how the Empire could possibly compete with the Federation or even the Alliance when they don't use robotics to any significant degree if everyone were actually free to do things they enjoyed? It may be 3307 but I doubt significantly portions of the human population suddenly got really interested in repetitive manufacturing labour.
A C Ender
01 Jul 2021, 12:52pm
For the record, I support neither Fed, Empire, or Alliance, so I don't have a horse in that race. I just think that the Empire in general try to hide their dirty laundry and pretend they're better, when they're about the same, certainly not better.
Rho Tefnutet
01 Jul 2021, 3:42pm
Trick is no one is the best of all three. Federation has slave wages with extreme social status gap, Empire has clear caste system plus hates on outsiders and Alliance accepts Communist governments that, at their very basis, cannot co-exist with any degree of liberty. They are easily to be perceived as villains or heroes in their own ways.
Skylar Godfrey
03 Jul 2021, 3:03pm
Rho TefnutetTrick is no one is the best of all three. Federation has slave wages with extreme social status gap, Empire has clear caste system plus hates on outsiders and Alliance accepts Communist governments that, at their very basis, cannot co-exist with any degree of liberty. They are easily to be perceived as villains or heroes in their own ways.


That's kind of what I like about the superpowers in Elite, none of them are perfect and all have their own strengths and weaknesses rather than just "empire bad" "federation good".
Amata Lirein
03 Jul 2021, 3:14pm
RopeLord
Rho TefnutetTrick is no one is the best of all three. Federation has slave wages with extreme social status gap, Empire has clear caste system plus hates on outsiders and Alliance accepts Communist governments that, at their very basis, cannot co-exist with any degree of liberty. They are easily to be perceived as villains or heroes in their own ways.



That's kind of what I like about the superpowers in Elite, none of them are perfect and all have their own strengths and weaknesses rather than just "empire bad" "federation good".


Unfortunatly (at least before all those "Pre-Emptive Detection Bureau"-shenanigans started) most players bought into this "Empire bad, Federation good"-BS as noone seemed to bother reading up on Elite's lore, not even the basics... The Paresa- (as well as the current) CG seems to indicate that this has changed a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if this misconception is still predominant.
GRIMM_PUNISHER
03 Jul 2021, 3:40pm
A Fully player controlled power with a player leader. See how the BGS would react to that. IF the devs decided to recognize something like that. That would be pretty sweet.
Isaiah Evanson
03 Jul 2021, 4:03pm
You could say Grom was the first attempt to do just that. But as you can see based on Powerplay's current state and the lack of relevant Galnet articles, it didn't matter then, and it doesn't matter now.
Rebecca Hail
03 Jul 2021, 4:48pm
Amata Lirein
RopeLord
Rho TefnutetTrick is no one is the best of all three. Federation has slave wages with extreme social status gap, Empire has clear caste system plus hates on outsiders and Alliance accepts Communist governments that, at their very basis, cannot co-exist with any degree of liberty. They are easily to be perceived as villains or heroes in their own ways.




That's kind of what I like about the superpowers in Elite, none of them are perfect and all have their own strengths and weaknesses rather than just "empire bad" "federation good".



Unfortunatly (at least before all those "Pre-Emptive Detection Bureau"-shenanigans started) most players bought into this "Empire bad, Federation good"-BS as noone seemed to bother reading up on Elite's lore, not even the basics... The Paresa- (as well as the current) CG seems to indicate that this has changed a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if this misconception is still predominant.


There's zero evidence that that misconception exists in the first place. On the opposite, the Empire has arguably more incentives to fight for them than the Federation.
Amata Lirein
03 Jul 2021, 5:12pm
Rebecca Hail
Amata Lirein
RopeLord



That's kind of what I like about the superpowers in Elite, none of them are perfect and all have their own strengths and weaknesses rather than just "empire bad" "federation good".




Unfortunatly (at least before all those "Pre-Emptive Detection Bureau"-shenanigans started) most players bought into this "Empire bad, Federation good"-BS as noone seemed to bother reading up on Elite's lore, not even the basics... The Paresa- (as well as the current) CG seems to indicate that this has changed a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if this misconception is still predominant.



There's zero evidence that that misconception exists in the first place. On the opposite, the Empire has arguably more incentives to fight for them than the Federation.


M-hm. What about Ackwada, which the Empire only won because of handicap shenanigans put in place by FDev to overcome said bias? Or Eurybia or LTT 1934 even though GALNET made it clear, especially with the latter, that the Empire was acting on good intel but was getting blocked because of said anti-Imperial bias in the playerbase?
Rebecca Hail
03 Jul 2021, 5:20pm
Amata Lirein
Rebecca Hail
Amata Lirein



Unfortunatly (at least before all those "Pre-Emptive Detection Bureau"-shenanigans started) most players bought into this "Empire bad, Federation good"-BS as noone seemed to bother reading up on Elite's lore, not even the basics... The Paresa- (as well as the current) CG seems to indicate that this has changed a bit, but I wouldn't be surprised if this misconception is still predominant.




There's zero evidence that that misconception exists in the first place. On the opposite, the Empire has arguably more incentives to fight for them than the Federation.



M-hm. What about Ackwada, which the Empire only won because of handicap shenanigans put in place by FDev to overcome said bias? Or Eurybia or LTT 1934 even though GALNET made it clear, especially with the latter, that the Empire was acting on good intel but was getting blocked because of said anti-Imperial bias in the playerbase?


Have you considered that a larger part of the player base back then was in favour of the NMLA? Obviously federal aligned players would oppose the Empire, but that does hardly mean that all opposing players aligned themselves with the Federation.

The vast majorities of players are independent and will skew to either the imperial or the federal side in a CG based upon an entire arrays of factors beside how they align themselves or how they perceive the factions themselves.

Again, there's no evidence that the game portrays the Federation as better than the Empire. On the contrary, the Empire used to get a lot more exposure and attention than the Federation.
Isaiah Evanson
03 Jul 2021, 5:24pm
In the early days, the Empire had better organized player groups and factions. It was during the early months of Powerplay that the Federation began to organize in earnest, because there was (at the time) a concern that if they didn't, Hudson and Winters would collapse. At the time we didn't know collapse wasn't implemented, which was why the Feds went all in on Torval for a while and the Imperials went absolutely ballistic on Archon Delaine. When neither power collapsed, it was confirmed that the mechanic was never implemented.

That being said, both sides organized extensively as a result of Powerplay. What you see now is the pendulum swinging back to the Federation after years of the Empire being a central focus to storylines influenced by player action.

It's worth noting that this isn't the first time it's happened either, as the arms race in the Pleiades ended with several burning Farraguts heralding the return of the Thargoids. So... winning isn't everything.
Amata Lirein
03 Jul 2021, 5:27pm
As far as I am aware the Paresa CG was the first time ever in the history of E:D that the Empire won a CG against the Federation without FDevs handing out any handicaps, cosmetics or double-engineered gear incentives. Otherwise the Empire tended to lose badly, in some cases even to the degree to qualify as a "curbstomp battle". There is a reason why "FedsWinLOL" is a meme inside the E:D community.
Amata Lirein
03 Jul 2021, 5:29pm
Isaiah EvansonIn the early days, the Empire had better organized player groups and factions. It was during the early months of Powerplay that the Federation began to organize in earnest, because there was (at the time) a concern that if they didn't, Hudson and Winters would collapse. At the time we didn't know collapse wasn't implemented, which was why the Feds went all in on Torval for a while and the Imperials went absolutely ballistic on Archon Delaine. When neither power collapsed, it was confirmed that the mechanic was never implemented.

That being said, both sides organized extensively as a result of Powerplay. What you see now is the pendulum swinging back to the Federation after years of the Empire being a central focus to storylines influenced by player action.

It's worth noting that this isn't the first time it's happened either, as the arms race in the Pleiades ended with several burning Farraguts heralding the return of the Thargoids. So... winning isn't everything.


I'm talking CGs here, not Powerplay. The latter makes no sense whatsoever anyway... You really think any of the superpowers would let a foreign powerplayer take over one of their systems?
Rebecca Hail
03 Jul 2021, 5:36pm
Amata LireinAs far as I am aware the Paresa CG was the first time ever in the history of E:D that the Empire won a CG against the Federation without FDevs handing out any handicaps, cosmetics or double-engineered gear incentives. Otherwise the Empire tended to lose badly, in some cases even to the degree to qualify as a "curbstomp battle". There is a reason why "FedsWinLOL" is a meme inside the E:D community.


Yes, there's a simple reason for that.

The Federation has way better combat ships.

While it may not make a difference for me in my fuck-off Corvette or you in your OP-Cutter, it makes a difference for a lot of players whether they fight against IEagles, Couriers, Clippers and Cutters or Dropships, Assaultships, Gunships and Corvettes.

If you notice that you have a way easier time fighting against one side, you'll natural side with that side unless there's a really compelling reason to not do so.

The premises of the game are simply not balanced. Additionally to that, placement of the CG stations etc also plays a big factor. If you'd set the federal drop off point 200kls out, the Empire would win any day. For the same reason the Empire tends to win delivery CGs if I remember that correctly. Having the best bulk carrier in the game as faction ship counts for a lot.
Isaiah Evanson
03 Jul 2021, 5:36pm
You don't understand. The Empire used to dominate just about everything before the Federation groups organized, something Powerplay was a catalyst to. Like I said, the pendulum has swung the other way.

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