Elite: General talk

Sakashiro
10 Feb 2021, 1:15pm
ArtieAt the one side, the shadow ban (and FC disabling) may look a little bit heavy handed. On the other side, it's fully understandable why Frontier did this, because damages (losing new players, getting bad reputation, a spread of this behavior) may be more serious than the benefits (new emergent gameplay). This way they sent the signal where are the borders and to be fair, the problematic behavior punished fits the respective point in the Code of conduct, so they have the decision backed (and my guess is they consulted it with their lawyers first, too).

SakashiroI just read the Polygon article.

There would have been no way back other than to self-destruct his new starship and effectively begin Elite’s grind all over again.




Brace yourselves, because FDev's response to this misrepresentation of a basic element of the game means that piracy is now violating the terms of service. You can no longer extort cargo by threat of destruction, because your victim might be seven years old and feel forced to "effectively begin Elite's grind all over again".

The whole affair is another exercise in wokeness. Again the rules get changed for everyone because a few snowflakes felt offended. Expect to see trigger warnings in the game soon.


The whole point was about scamming the players (against the Code of conduct), not about threats in the game about destroying some virtual property, which is not exactly a part of the terms written there (when not prolonged, repeated, etc. so it can be considered as harassment).

The risk of getting trapped in deep space is part of the game. If in this case we blame the fleet carrier owners, who is to blame in all the other cases? FDev?

If anything, the name of the game has become a scam. Nothing dangerous in that galaxy. Slave carriers were an excellent RP opportunity, but we have to eliminate them because of some 7-year old child who's not supposed to play the game in the first place. Go ahead, FDev, make everything child-friendly so that the adults get bored and leave. See who pays your bills then.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Burstar
10 Feb 2021, 1:20pm
My 2 credits worth:

I was amused at the whole situation, but annoyed by how biased and inflammatory the Polygon article was.  Yes, a minor almost became a 'PC Slave' but did not because they were being supervised.  Regardless, the game is not family rated so it's a bs point to begin with.  They didn't interview any other ACTUAL slaves did they?  No, the minor almost had an unfair thing happen to them reference was only to provoke an emotional response and clearly slant the article in one direction.

The reality is in game and community mechanics to prevent something like this from happening worked.  Those fooled and trapped had simply to ask someone how to get out of it and would have been told to detonate their GIVEN TO THEM BY THE VILLAIN ship to respawn in a free sidewinder at the noob zone again.  They would have lost literally nothing and gained any profit they could squeeze out of the interaction and knowledge about how Dangerous: Elite is, a funny anecdote to share, and almost certainly made friends in game out of the deal.  Someone did which is how we heard about it.

The community coming together to bail out the captives made for excellent PR for those that helped, FD and Elite.  The problem is the villains in this story made two crucial mistakes:

1) They expressed zero remorse and professed they were doubling down and expanding their efforts on this at a time when,
2)  FDev are trying retain as many new players as possible for the Odyssey release, making it the absolute worst time to possibly sour the game for new players.

Had these villains made this into some sort of roleplay experience for everyone involved and/or cut and run after the community foiled their efforts with some sort of cartoonish "I'll get you next time noobs, NEXT TIME" and made this something fun for everyone it would have ended there I'm sure of it.  They didn't so FDev had to put the hammer down.  This is why we can't have nice things.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Terias
10 Feb 2021, 1:33pm
SuperFixxxeRBans are always divisive. I was not surprised to read through the comments here and find not much has changed.

Elite has a massive learning curve, and there is enough toxicity in Elite as it is. The bigger picture here is that something like this can turn off new players, damage the playerbase at what is probably quite a pivoting moment in Elites journey with the looming Odyessy release. Its basically bad PR.

That being said, I always treat Elite (and any other game for that matter) as a game and encourage others to do so - its something that doesn't work in the ED community that well, because as soon as you start talking about combat logging, players get on their high horses about morals and suchlike; Yet they're happy to go to Davs Hope or any HGE spots and flip the shit out of the menus until they have all the mats they need.

The reporting on this whole scheme is wrong; words like scam, slavery - its just been over-sensationalised; Its a game; At no point where these players 'forced' to do anything, or kept as "slaves" because that is not a function or game mechanic in Elite. They [fuel scoop dependent] could have done the 800ly trip back to civilized space (and made a tidy profit and increased their exploration rank) - and if they couldn't do that, how new are these 'new' players? New enough to self destruct and write off their modest miner build? Probably.



It was made clear that they grabbed these players from the starting area before they ever had a chance to learn the game. The slavers only taught the new players what they wanted them to know and intentionally omitted what would actually help them escape the situation. If you don't know where the self destruct key is and that you can respawn back in the bubble how could you know? Through other articles that came out it was reported that they also could not jump back to the bubble on their own. The builds that the slavers had them setup in these keelbacks gave them a 2LY jump range and no fuel scoop.

I don't condone what the slavers did but it was genius, even though the guy in The Pilots interview gave the impression he doesn't have any brain cells to spare.

From a business stand point they made the right choice. Do you really want bad PR to deter people from playing your game? Especially when you have a great big new expansion only a few months away from release?

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Quillmonkey
10 Feb 2021, 1:44pm
Rufus P. Braythis is my current "low emissions/exploration" AspX build:

https://edsy.org/s/vTLKTeb


Thanks for that Rufus - an interesting mix of builds going on there. I have begun engineering up an aspX to see how it fares, though I'd feel better pancaking a python at 220m/s than an asp.

On the slaver topic, I've written extensively on this elsewhere and was trying to avoid saying anything here, but some of the responses above have made me embarrassed. So, sorry, here comes a bit of a rant.

SakashiroFDev's response ... effectively begin Elite’s grind all over again.

I think it's worth being very careful putting words into the mouths of FDev. The words you use come from a meh gaming blog whose reporting of the entire story reeked of self publicising ego. I also think you are wrong in your assertion that FDev are trying to outlaw intrinsic elements of the game. Piracy, like murder is an entirely in-game action. It affects only pixel money and make-believe ships.
However, the abduction of players, whether initially with their co-operation or not, and their subsequent holding of their accounts, most definitely against their wills (as LatexRoach pointed out several times), is not an entirely in-game action. It is also exploitation of a real person's account.
At the end of the day, exploitation is exploitation and, as LatexRoach agreed, their actions are classed as modern trafficking and slavery. Not just in-game, but overlapping into real life. This cannot be condoned as much as you may like to hold onto your cosy privilege.

The in-game aspects are fairly anaemic and don't bother me half as much. Yes, the noobs may have been greedy in accepting treats and a promise of training but as we now know they were never told how they could get out of it. They were forced to play a particular role and had no choice about it. In order to play a game they might have paid money for, they had to work for 10% payout and no freedom to pursue any other facet of E:D like trade, exploration etc. Their freedom was entirely dependent on the whims of the 7th Legion. That is exploitation of real people - and that is what makes it so different from gankers or pirates.

FDev have a policy specifically about opposition to modern slavery and human trafficking and they felt - correctly - that these actions contravened that policy and had no option but to punish. If this kind of story got out, it would be hugely injurous to Frontier. It is bad enough that they condone slavery and human trafficking within the game.  I am certainly not the only person who feels this aspect of the game is unsettling and ethically corrupt in these more culturally diverse days.

I don't think saying 'it happens all the time in EVE' makes it any better. It just makes us sound complicit.
Arguments to the effect of 'why didn't they just self-destruct' or 'why didn't they google a solution?' are only raised by people who already know the game and don't really help.
As I said, the in-game aspects are not the issue here. It is the moral implication.

The fact is, I am all for in-game emergent narratives and in-game shittiness all round. Apply the salt or get salty, it's all fine. The reason I was quiet on this thread for a while was the interminable arguments about ganking - jeez! you guys can't half go on about nothing. Personally, I think it's all good. It's in game and it adds the 'dangerous' to Elite: Dangerous.  But the actions of the slavers spilled over into real-life. It holds so many parallels with the horrifying upsurge in human trafficking that is going on today. So, while still based in a video game, the fact that a group of (let's face it, right-wing bigots) can exploit other people, players, affect their game, and have no moral reflection on those actions just disgusts me.

Feel free to disagree but I had to voice my opinion.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Rho Tefnutet
10 Feb 2021, 2:00pm
SuperFixxxeRElite has a massive learning curve, and there is enough toxicity in Elite as it is.


Toxicity? Elite: Dangerous is a very tame place compared to the other space sim communities, such as one dedicated to a very large fan add-on to Freelancer which has a lot of off-forums hatred if you decide not to be part of any circlejerk. And we are speaking about the community that has less than 500 active players.

While entire thing is very bad, especially around the medial coverage that hit ED - I wouldn't know what to do in place of FDev, but if they decide to ban these players, I can see reasoning why. Imagine that a governmental body butts into the MMO and starts to meddle with stuff they don't really understand, then it harms us - as players - for sake of safety of the others that play the game. After all, the main problems are these things:

1. We cannot tell where is the line between in-character behavior and actual cyber-bullying.
2. You cannot really tell who is behind the player character/ship/avatar/etc.

However, I agree with one thing: it was parents' fault not to supervise their kids, because even if ED is allowed for kids (PEGI 7), there is a reason why online interactions are usually labeled as "Not Rated by the ESRB."

As for real-life meddling with video games, I don't really want to bring up that example, but I don't know if anyone remembers that some pseudo-feminist group pushed a proposal to treat attacks on female characters in the MMO equal to attempted sexual assault. It had a very broad negative stigma towards gamers who were called out as sexual predators and extreme bigots.


P.S. Please move that "right-wing/left-wing/ape-wing bigots" bullcrap away from INARA. ED community and its players should be not tainted by real life political polarization among the society (resulting in auto-extremist treatment of people as "us vs them") that some of us have to fight every day in real life and on the internet. There's a reason why we are running into video games from the mess the politicians themselves created, after all.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Sir Sprockett
10 Feb 2021, 2:04pm
[ So, while still based in a video game, the fact that a group of (let's face it, right-wing bigots) can exploit other people, players, affect their game, and have no moral reflection on those actions just disgusts me.

Feel free to disagree but I had to voice my opinion.[/quote]

where is this evidence?

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:58pm
Artie
10 Feb 2021, 2:20pm
Sakashiro
The risk of getting trapped in deep space is part of the game. If in this case we blame the fleet carrier owners, who is to blame in all the other cases? FDev?

If anything, the name of the game has become a scam. Nothing dangerous in that galaxy. Slave carriers were an excellent RP opportunity, but we have to eliminate them because of some 7-year old child who's not supposed to play the game in the first place. Go ahead, FDev, make everything child-friendly so that the adults get bored and leave. See who pays your bills then.

It surely is. But the matter isn't about being trapped in some virtual place (you can get out by auto-destruct anyway) or about young children (as mentioned here, the game has a rating as not a game being recommended to them). By my opinion the point is that inexperienced players were scammed into doing something, harming their game experience or even forcing them out of the game due this. Sure, it's something that such players may overcome (the auto-destruct mentioned, being saved by other commanders, etc.) and it surely can bring interesting moments to the gameplay. The problem is that such inexperienced and uninformed players are usually not very aware such options or that there are even people trying to help them (even if you write it in the Galnet, because people simply don't read) and they (rightfully) will feel scammed and will ask Frontier why they aren't doing something, as it's breaking their Code of conduct. It's quite a difficult position and subjectively, Frontier cannot afford to not react at all - they cannot say: "yeah, we know it's against the rules, but it brings new gameplay options, so we will do nothing". It will fire back to them very fast.

Last edit: 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
Tengri Umai
10 Feb 2021, 2:20pm
If you don't know where the self destruct key is and that you can respawn back in the bubble how could you know?


You can google almost anything nowadays or at least ask on Fdev forum, reddit, discord official server and etc. They were cut off from the Bubble, not internet.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
Synthya Wylder
10 Feb 2021, 2:47pm
Tengri Umai
If you don't know where the self destruct key is and that you can respawn back in the bubble how could you know?



You can google almost anything nowadays or at least ask on Fdev forum, reddit, discord official server and etc. They were cut off from the Bubble, but not internet.


You make a valid point, but I was one of those 'Newbs' just about a year ago, & staring right up at that seeming impossibly high near-vertical 'learning cliff'. There are tutorials in the game, but since it is so complex, 3rd-party sites & resources have sprung up. E:D is not a simple game to learn & play for those just starting out.

Me, being in the "Seasoned Citizen" age group, paid for the game myself & was determined not to give up & waste it so I started researching & reading, which lead me to Inara (still, IMO the single best 3rd-party resource for E:D, Thank You Artie! ).

To this day, I still consider myself Newb-ish, & I still spend more time reading & researching than I do actually playing; such a complex game that E:D is.

I do know, the day that the free Epic E:D game event launched, my alt, Sappho, spent hours & hours over days trying to answer & offer advice in Dromi system chat for the constant flurry of questions from all of the newbs, & I  was constantly referring them to the Tutorials & Inara, etc.

My suggestion, before casting opprobrium on those newbs, recall the day when you all, each & every one, first started the game... no one starts it with the knowledge & experience they have now, & making comments referenced from experienced viewpoints seemingly forget the times when we were all Newb.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
Wulthus
10 Feb 2021, 2:58pm
Allright, Quillie, thank you for sharing your thoughts.

However, the abduction of players, whether initially with their co-operation or not, and their subsequent holding of their accounts, most definitely against their wills (as LatexRoach pointed out several times), is not an entirely in-game action. It is also exploitation of a real person's account.


Not a single player was abducted, I'm afraid. I'm pretty certain that at any time, they can just turn off their consoles, do and go wherever the hell they wished. Their accounts were not trapped, not at all! I think that people here forget there's a 3rd option to get back to the newbie zone. It's in the menu, big and shiny "Clear save" button.

Arguments to the effect of 'why didn't they just self-destruct' or 'why didn't they google a solution?' are only raised by people who already know the game and don't really help.


You know why the experienced players raise "the googling question"? Because that's how they got there! That's a huge hint. There are tonnes of stuff online, even when you hate reading there are youtube videos available explaining almost every aspect of the game.  That's soo strange to me, why they didn't even bother to look the stuff up?! I learned how to play this game by literally typing "How to XYZ in Elite" into the search engine.

Yes, the noobs may have been greedy in accepting treats and a promise of training but as we now know they were never told how they could get out of it.


Not just greedy. Unbelievably lazy.  Who actually got scammed into the slavery thing? Players who didn't even bother in the slightest to look anything up for themselves. Let that sink in... These guys expected to be carried. To have an easy start, and to be on the top players' list without putting any effort into it. That doesn't sound like a hill worth dying on, if you ask me.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
Sakashiro
10 Feb 2021, 2:59pm
Artie
Sakashiro
The risk of getting trapped in deep space is part of the game. If in this case we blame the fleet carrier owners, who is to blame in all the other cases? FDev?

If anything, the name of the game has become a scam. Nothing dangerous in that galaxy. Slave carriers were an excellent RP opportunity, but we have to eliminate them because of some 7-year old child who's not supposed to play the game in the first place. Go ahead, FDev, make everything child-friendly so that the adults get bored and leave. See who pays your bills then.


It surely is. But the matter isn't about being trapped in some virtual place (you can get out by auto-destruct anyway) or about young children (as mentioned here, the game has a rating as not a game being recommended to them). By my opinion the point is that inexperienced players were scammed into doing something, harming their game experience or even forcing them out of the game due this. Sure, it's something that such players may overcome (the auto-destruct mentioned, being saved by other commanders, etc.) and it surely can bring interesting moments to the gameplay. The problem is that such inexperienced and uninformed players are usually not very aware such options or that there are even people trying to help them (even if you write it in the Galnet, because people simply don't read) and they (rightfully) will feel scammed and will ask Frontier why they aren't doing something, as it's breaking their Code of conduct. It's quite a difficult position and subjectively, Frontier cannot afford to not react at all - they cannot say: "yeah, we know it's against the rules, but it brings new gameplay options, so we will do nothing". It will fire back to them very fast.

The claim that players would be driven out of the game by this experience is based on nothing but anecdotal evidence. For some reason, games known for their "toxic" environments outsell Elite Dangerous on a fairly regular basis. EVE, Rust, Conan Exiles etc. are much more unforgiving to newbies than ED, and it doesn't hurt them one bit. Besides, I call BS to the claim that players couldn't figure out how to get out of this. Yes, Elite Dangerous has a steep learning curve, but even if you fail to find the self-destruct button, the clear save button is huge and impossible to miss. Also, there's a huge wiki on the web explaining every aspect of the game. And there are forums to ask questions.

One thing I know for sure is this: If FDev continues catering to 7 year old players, they'll drive me out of the game.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
SuperFixxxeR
10 Feb 2021, 2:59pm
Not to mention, players can just start a new game at any time from the menu.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
Effie Trinket
10 Feb 2021, 3:02pm
You all make very good points and observations.

The Crew of Thunderbird 4 have been discussing this and all believe that the result is that this is WOKE, plain and simple.

I dislike seal clubbers and bad types generally, but I firmly believe that they have a place, a very important place in our lives and I enjoy the knowledge that around every corner, in every shadow, there could lurk a monster of despicable motives.

Without them, how can I or any of my goodly caring 'lovers not fighters' even begin to look good, if everyone is good. That would just make us all look extremely dull. The world, even the Elite world, would be a thoroughly boring and pointless place, if all within it were goodly. There has to be arses for all of the hats.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
Synthya Wylder
10 Feb 2021, 3:09pm
Sakashiro ...One thing I know for sure is this: If FDev continues catering to 7 year old players, they'll drive me out of the game.


^this^

I know it by the phrase, "Pandering to the lowest common denominator."

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm
Artie
10 Feb 2021, 3:21pm
In my opinion, the entire thing isn't about "caring about 7 years old players" or whether the players were or weren't able to solve the situation they were in on their own. In my view Frontier decided that way because of the rules set and broken. Simple as that.

If I should use another general example, it's (especially in MMOs) the matter of accessing accounts of other players. You can have a big bold "do not share your password with anybody" left and right and yet there will be players that will share their password with the other player(s) and then they get robbed. It's their fault? It certainly is. But that doesn't mean that the rule was not broken and consequences shouldn't be drawn even if the damage was entirely minimal (like just 1 gold/credit stolen from their account or so). Technically speaking, even the account sharing can be punishable by ToC of some games, even with no damage done (rather the opposite), but as old Czech proverb says: "Where there is no plaintiff, there is no judge."

So, when Frontier was given the situation where some players complain about the rules breaking (and that may have happened not just publicly (vaguely), but directly via tickets, etc.) they simply needed to do something and enforce the rules. They cannot do otherwise. Then it's just a matter of how exactly they will enforce the rules.

Last edit: 10 Feb 2021, 5:59pm

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