Elite: General talk

Sakashiro
15 Feb 2021, 9:00pm
EpisparhI doubt that people who just reset instances to kill other CMDRs have some reasoning to support a side in a CG. Preventing contribution is less effective than actually contributing to the opposing side. What actually happens is that they are driving more people in SOLO/PG.  I've been doing yesterday CZ in open... I didn't die but I was close twice. So, I know what's actually going on there. If you are alone you should be always looking behind your back.

I participated in a combat CG last year. I was flying the Courier, freshly engineered at that time. Returning from a CZ with other CMDRs on the radar was scary, but also exciting.

However, I think it would be wrong to force CG participants into open mode, because PvE and PvP require very different ship builds, and repurposing a ship quickly is pretty much impossible in this game. For example, the Anaconda I'm using to farm hazRES for materials would probably not last long in PvP, and it would take at least a week of intense grind to reconfigure it. Open-only CGs would be suitable only to players who already play PvP on a regular basis and have those ships ready, and would be very frustrating to players without access to the full range of engineers. That's obviously not what FDev wants, so playing CGs in solo will remain an option.

Here's an alternative suggestion: Make CGs open-only and unengineered-only. But of course that'll never happen.

Post edited/moved by: Artie, 15 Feb 2021, 9:01pm
Igneel Prime
15 Feb 2021, 9:06pm
Mr. Goodtimes
Igneel PrimeElite certainly isn't an MMO. specifically on the massive part it fails hideously. It's an online game, but not an MMO




This is from the game wiki - Elite Dangerous is a space flight simulation game developed and published by Frontier Developments. Piloting a spaceship, the player explores a realistic 1:1 scale open-world representation of the Milky Way galaxy, with the gameplay being open-ended. The game is the first in the series to attempt massively multiplayer gameplay, with players' actions affecting the narrative story of the game's persistent universe, while also retaining a single-player mode.

MMO - just means massive multiplayer online which Elite falls under
just because the player base is not as big as you'd like doesn't stop it from being a MMO.


it has nothing to do with the size of the player base. The game is physically incapable of supporting any serious amount of players in one spot bring 10 people into an instance and it will start failing. Ergo massively failed. Affecting people not in your instance or game mode through BGS and other stuff is not enough
Cosmic-Stardust
15 Feb 2021, 9:27pm
Igneel Prime
Mr. Goodtimes
Igneel PrimeElite certainly isn't an MMO. specifically on the massive part it fails hideously. It's an online game, but not an MMO





This is from the game wiki - Elite Dangerous is a space flight simulation game developed and published by Frontier Developments. Piloting a spaceship, the player explores a realistic 1:1 scale open-world representation of the Milky Way galaxy, with the gameplay being open-ended. The game is the first in the series to attempt massively multiplayer gameplay, with players' actions affecting the narrative story of the game's persistent universe, while also retaining a single-player mode.

MMO - just means massive multiplayer online which Elite falls under
just because the player base is not as big as you'd like doesn't stop it from being a MMO.



it has nothing to do with the size of the player base. The game is physically incapable of supporting any serious amount of players in one spot bring 10 people into an instance and it will start failing. Ergo massively failed. Affecting people not in your instance or game mode through BGS and other stuff is not enough





I'm done with this... I say, good day Sir!
Sakashiro
15 Feb 2021, 9:27pm
Igneel Primeit has nothing to do with the size of the player base. The game is physically incapable of supporting any serious amount of players in one spot bring 10 people into an instance and it will start failing. Ergo massively failed. Affecting people not in your instance or game mode through BGS and other stuff is not enough

ED multiplayer is based on P2P networking, i.e. it assigns the instance server role dynamically to (probably) the fastest PC with the most bandwidth that isn't firewalled.

In other words, FDev leaves it to us to improve the multiplayer experience by contributing better gear. That's the downside of not having to pay a subscription fee.
Episparh
15 Feb 2021, 9:54pm
"Massive"... 14 players screenshot emulator
Heilrider
15 Feb 2021, 9:58pm
Sir Sprockett
HeilriderI'm simple man, I see CG, I will do it in open. I accept any risk, for you this people are gankers. For me they are just enemies/terrorists/whatever else. 1 player will farm bonds, other will kill players, which collect bonds.
Additional rewards for playing in open during CG? No. COMMUNITY goals should be doable only in open, no in safe harbour of solo and PG
But ofc. I agree, that crime system needs rework. Other problem is gap between unengineered and engineered ships.

Remember, that any CG is grindfestival.
"collect as many bonds, as you can and claim it". IMO killing opponents before they claim bond it is valid gameplay too. Destroy ship with broken modules, and 30% hull indeed is dickmove, but it is war CG



sadly that is nonsense. I got ganked by 2 different players who sent apologies afterwards... neither where my baddies in the CG... so no CG is a gank fest. Play solo in CG to get CG done.


I participate in this CH since first day and I saw 0 gankers, man, I'm rly lucky guy indeed.
No, it isn't nonsense.
CG in safe solo is nonsense
Sir Sprockett
15 Feb 2021, 10:02pm
safe or not, I am getting the CG done for the side I chose.  Though system chat was all about Gankers a Ganking - I think that they have mostly signed up to the JD side and are seriously loosing the CG. Also I believe that the vast majority of players a good people - but for always there are bad eggs... Solo for the WIN....
Heilrider
15 Feb 2021, 10:05pm
Tengri Umai
Heilrider
"collect as many bonds, as you can and claim it". IMO killing opponents before they claim bond it is valid gameplay too. Destroy ship with broken modules, and 30% hull indeed is dickmove, but it is war CG

Yeah, yeah. It's all good on paper. But some CG is just unplayable. For example AX CG. When people are flying in dedicated anti xeno ships and there several wings of gankers. You can't fight PvP suited ship with AX weapons. So what? You will need another PvP wing that will be guarding AX one?

Yes.
Where? Welp, just search, this is COMMUNITY goal.

Sir Sprockettsafe or not, I am getting the CG done for the side I chose.  Though system chat was all about Gankers a Ganking - I think that they have mostly signed up to the JD side and are seriously loosing the CG. Also I believe that the vast majority of players a good people - but for always there are bad eggs... Solo for the WIN....

Yes, this is very interesting. Whole reddit, and in-game chat is about gankers.
But when you enter into game you will see 1-2 enemies in CZ and 0 gankers in SC, 0 gankers around megaships and stations
And no. JD lost CG because 4400 players vs 11000
Not because bad gankers focus on players, not npc's
Artie
15 Feb 2021, 10:09pm
Heilrider
Tengri Umai
Yeah, yeah. It's all good on paper. But some CG is just unplayable. For example AX CG. When people are flying in dedicated anti xeno ships and there several wings of gankers. You can't fight PvP suited ship with AX weapons. So what? You will need another PvP wing that will be guarding AX one?



Yes.
Where? Welp, just search, this is COMMUNITY goal.

Well, let's be realistic. There was something over 500 CGs so far - was it ever done on a wider scale in some CG? Just curious.
I never heard of it and it honestly won't be surprising if there really are no cases of such arrangements, because all the extra work and problems it brings.
Heilrider
15 Feb 2021, 10:16pm
Why do it, if all people can hide in solo?
I think too, that CG in solo/PG are against CG's idea, as Igneel, but sadly changing it is impossible (you know, AlL mUsT bE dOaBlE in any mode, and crappy p2p, which is pain in bigger amount of players, and generally, balance (gap between upgraded/non upgraded ships), differences in pve/pvp loadout (but tbh pvp loadout will work in pve, it just isn't good for killing 1000 npc in a row, smaller ammo capacity)).
And...sadly, community (why going normal way, if I can use easy way/why fit any shield on cargo ship/why fight again player for 100k, when I can blast ship for 400k in few seconds/max efficiency). Imagine this whole rage on open only CG's, even with better balance, and without p2p architecture. From 1 side elite has the best community which I saw in online games, from other side I never saw such softy community, which try avoid any risk and danger for any price.
Sir Sprockett
15 Feb 2021, 10:28pm
your points are valid.

When I started to play ED last year, I took an ASP X off exploring went out of the bubble for a journey around the void scanning and gathering data - all played in open, my whole game was in open at that time. I come back to the bubble with 60 hours of time in Exploring data, to be ganked one system from home. The experience stopped me playing for about a month and when i came back I went SOLO. WHY should I have my gaming experience ruined because you want to destroy my ship for no gain in game but for EGO.

And with the POOR Crime and Punishment set up in game then why risk all my hours of time in this game (for nothing can be done quickly in this game - expect killing other players) to satisfy an EGO.
Rho Tefnutet
15 Feb 2021, 10:29pm
FDev won't make separate Solo/PG and Open, let alone restrict mechanics for PG/Solo mode. Firstly, that would be very bad for firm's rep that involves a lot of issues that basically roll into categories of "breaking initial promises to offer exactly the same content to all platforms and modes". It's not just about group of players who want to stay in PG/Solo, but could be taken under purposeful restricting content that is widely available with bought product - which in some countries can be considered a serious crime. This is why there are NO bonuses for Open, due to the fact it would be breaking initial equality between the modes.

But also, the issue comes from the fact that a lot of players play PG/Solo not because they don't want to avoid PVP, but because it's the only technical way to enjoy ED. There are issues with the ISP, very high ping between clients given P2P connection or internet being strained in certain place, data limitations (that's a thing in some countries) or - the rarest one - lack of subscription that only limits console players to Solo.

There is yet another issue. Anyone who played any actual MMO knows that servers must have a lot of infrastructure to contain players. Majority of the infrastructure of Elite: Dangerous is likely Stellar Forge, so to unload stress onto the servers FDev decided to go P2P connection without much server involvement. However, that brings me to the problem from the previous paragraph: that decision strains on people who want to play Open, but they are technically incapable to do that.

As for the people who say "muh BGS I cannot counter", it makes no sense because different game modes aren't the only case in which you cannot attack players with meddling your system, namely: timezone and platform. Whining that people in PG/Solo are meddling with your own system BGS makes as much sense as asking Playstation or Xbox players not to do stuff in your system, because you can't reach them - or because they are in Australian timezone and your entire squad is from the USA. But then again I know Squadrons maintained by 9-5 jobs people who in their small numbers (4-5 active players) who were able to hold their home systems against Squadrons with several dozen to even three digit number members.

Addendum:
And lastly, the people whose only goal is just to stomp over people who have no means to defend themselves and while it makes sense from gameplay-lore-RP, it doesn't necessarily make sense to everyone. Sure, you could defend them but in most cases it is just IMPOSSIBLE and in most cases by the time rescue comes, the rescued is already at the rebuy screen. Add up instancing issues, Engineering (that gives extreme differences) and the fact that a lot of people have a different pacing, expectations and style of gameplay so FDev wanted to cater to them all, HOWEVER they are unable to do other kind of restrictions to PG/Solo players - reasons in the very first paragraph in here.

Last edit: 15 Feb 2021, 10:45pm
Chase Quinnell
15 Feb 2021, 10:30pm
Sir Sprockettyour points are valid.

When I started to play ED last year, I took an ASP X off exploring went out of the bubble for a journey around the void scanning and gathering data - all played in open, my whole game was in open at that time. I come back to the bubble with 60 hours of time in Exploring data, to be ganked one system from home. The experience stopped me playing for about a month and when i came back I went SOLO. WHY should I have my gaming experience ruined because you want to destroy my ship for no gain in game but for EGO.

And with the POOR Crime and Punishment set up in game then why risk all my hours of time in this game (for nothing can be done quickly in this game - expect killing other players) to satisfy an EGO.


Pretty much my thoughts on this. People who just stomp others for no apparent reason kinda ruin the experience.
Artie
15 Feb 2021, 10:32pm
HeilriderWhy do it, if all people can hide in solo?
I think too, that CG in solo/PG are against CG's idea, as Igneel, but sadly changing it is impossible (you know, AlL mUsT bE dOaBlE in any mode, and crappy p2p, which is pain in bigger amount of players, and generally, balance (gap between upgraded/non upgraded ships), differences in pve/pvp loadout (but tbh pvp loadout will work in pve, it just isn't good for killing 1000 npc in a row, smaller ammo capacity)).
And...sadly, community (why going normal way, if I can use easy way/why fit any shield on cargo ship/why fight again player for 100k, when I can blast ship for 400k in few seconds/max efficiency). Imagine this whole rage on open only CG's, even with better balance, and without p2p architecture. From 1 side elite has the best community which I saw in online games, from other side I never saw such softy community, which try avoid any risk and danger for any price.

Exactly, it's simpler and more comfortable. In my opinion the game should motivate players to do some activity (generally speaking, not just Elite about CGs in Open), not to force them. Forcing players to do something they do not want to do is a recipe for losing them. Either to the particular activity or to the entire game.

For example, I can imagine CG where some players are hauling stuff from A to B and the other side is trying to stop them (and it can be Open only), so the haulers should be protected. You can motivate PvE truckers here to join PvP players (as protectors), but - they must be motivated to do so. Nobody will risk their rebuys, gameplay time, etc. just for becoming a target. But if you provide some incentive, you will guarantee that their death will cost them nothing than just a little time lost for a promise of a reasonable reward, many can join. For players that are not very into asymmetric PvP there are rather more sticks than carrots in the Open, some of the core game principles must change to give a motivation to a wider range of players. When even PvP players are rather going to Solo when trying to bring back the exploration data, you can smell there may be something wrong with the risks and rewards.
Igneel Prime
15 Feb 2021, 10:33pm

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