Elite: General talk

Rebecca Hail
17 Feb 2021, 6:07pm
Chase QuinnellI am against the idea of creating a subscription to access a certain game mode. Arx is fine. Gated access to PvP, PvE, etc is not.


It wouldn't be gated access to PvE or PvP. It would be gated access to serverbased infrastructure instead of the usual P2P infrastructure.

Something like that won't happen anyways, too much effort to maintain it.
MarcOmega
17 Feb 2021, 6:39pm
Igneel Prime
MarcOmegaeveryone is literally "paying" for the privilege of blowing each other up



This says something else. It's one thing to make an optional game mode. Even having certain content specific to that game mode. It's a completely different thing to have such a game mode tied to payments let alone subscriptions


Elite mode would be another game mode, like Solo, PG, and Open. Same universe, same CG's, same engineers, same ships, same content. The difference is that you would pay a subscription to play that mode in order to underwrite the cost of dedicated server based instancing, which addresses the PvP complaints of poor P2P instancing, inability to instance more than a certain number of commanders, forgiving net code which allows combat logging, etc. And, Frontier could offer addtional options as well, removing the block function for that mode, even creating challenge modes where ships imported into Elite mode would be removed back to other modes and not allowed back into Elite mode when they are destroyed.

Again, optional in that, if you don't need dedicated infrastructure, you don't have to play that mode, you can still engage in PvP in Open, but you retain the existing P2P network instancing which is prone to the above complaints.

As to PvP players not wanting to pay for dedicated infrastructure, someone has to pay for it if you are going to have it. If there are not enough players to support the mode, it simply means that there is not enough support for dedicated PvP to underwrite the costs.

And I agree with Rebecca, I don't believe the PvP community is large enough and dedicated enough to the game to support the work required to create it and maintain it. But, Frontier making the offer, assuming enough people say they would subscribe, would be one way to find out.
Igneel Prime
17 Feb 2021, 7:35pm
See when you said "settle this for everyone" I thought you meant also removing it from the not so fit open mode to make the care bears happy because the pvpers wanna be in the mode that's made for it anyway. Just having it as an option would be fine but I still don't see why anyone would want to pay if the non pay option is there. Either way as Rebecca said. doesn't matter cuz it ain't happening
Synthya Wylder
17 Feb 2021, 7:50pm
Not that it'll ever happen, but I for one, would be happy if it did, SO LONG as ONLY those who'd be using it would be the ones charged & paying the additional expense.

For those dedicated PvPers (question whether that would appeal to the ganker-types too) it would give them a place to pew-pew & get that for which they are looking.
MarcOmega
17 Feb 2021, 9:52pm
Igneel PrimeSee when you said "settle this for everyone" I thought you meant also removing it from the not so fit open mode to make the care bears happy because the pvpers wanna be in the mode that's made for it anyway. Just having it as an option would be fine but I still don't see why anyone would want to pay if the non pay option is there. Either way as Rebecca said. doesn't matter cuz it ain't happening


ED's P2P network code will NEVER properly support large numbers of commanders for PvP play. It will also always be hampered by instancing issues. This has to do with the matchmaking server which tries to pair up users with similar network connections to the central server, which means, their P2P network connection with each other will also be similar. That means that you probably have an affinity to be paired up with a user in a close geographic region, but also with similar latency, bandwidth, etc. Depending on the style of game play, in a CZ for instance, the strength and latency of the network connection becomes even more important. Telemetry data, which is what you are exchanging with other players, relates to ship position, speed, shield strength, hull, projectile direction and speed, etc. If there is a lag between connections, you get all the issues that come with latency, including rubber banding, etc. This also accounts for users reporting that they have a ship down to 0% hull, only to have that ship disappear and reappear with hull above 0%. Network lag can cause all of those issues as there is a disagreement between the 2 clients as to the telemetry data that is being reported. The ship you were shooting at wasn't actually at that location, but their network client just lagged letting you know.

AXI combat is also problematic, as Sakashiro noted, because of the large numbers of items that are being reported via telemetry. If you let the matchmaking server work as intended and unimpeded, you likely won't see these issues as you are paired with like network connections, so the transfers are seamless. When you interfere with that matchmaking server, by friending people, by winging up, etc, you are more likely to connect with a very different network connection and then you are more likely to experience issues.

The Pay option would alleviate those issues as it moves all telemetry to server side calculations which happen in real time, and it provides for an authoritative source which can settle disputes between the different clients. So, if you want a battle royale between 50 heroes and villains in ED, the pay option would allow that to happen. If you want to dispense with the possibility of combat logging, then the pay option would allow that.

I already said I agree that it is very unlikely to be highly utilized. Again, it underscores the point of why Frontier is sticking with P2P networking and not revamping for full server side connections as most MMO's use. Because, if there are not enough users that are willing to pay, there isn't enough money to support the infrastructure. That also explains why many of us point out that ED is a PvE game with a PvP option, NOT a PvP based MMO.
Igneel Prime
17 Feb 2021, 10:14pm
Oh I understand all that. What I'm saying is that the incentive of slightly improved PvP conditions are is not really high enough for people to find it worth paying for I think. Which brings us to your last couple lines. Sure there are probably a good number of people who would very much approve of such big battles but most likely not enough to fund a server for a long period of time. A more likely scenario might be the PlanetSide2 route where the Devs support a player run server for tournaments. Pros and Cons to that too. It would be another thing that the players have to deal with and organise which some people already seem angry enough about. But at the same time the players COULD organise it and if there's people willing to fund it they can pay while others with less funds wouldn't have to, as opposed to the anyone who wants to have the privilege has to pay for it.
Sakashiro
17 Feb 2021, 10:42pm
ED must be great for LAN parties. All the clients talking to each other through the same router via gigabit ethernet, super short RTT, no firewall issues, no packet loss etc.
Chase Quinnell
18 Feb 2021, 1:26am
SakashiroED must be great for LAN parties. All the clients talking to each other through the same router via gigabit ethernet, super short RTT, no firewall issues, no packet loss etc.


I'll catch flak for this, but I think peer to peer was a stupid decision on FDev's part. Cheap, lazy, and/or stupid.
Synthya Wylder
18 Feb 2021, 1:47am
Chase Quinnell
SakashiroED must be great for LAN parties. All the clients talking to each other through the same router via gigabit ethernet, super short RTT, no firewall issues, no packet loss etc.



I'll catch flak for this, but I think peer to peer was a stupid decision on FDev's part. Cheap, lazy, and/or stupid.


Your alternative would be...?
MarcOmega
18 Feb 2021, 2:12am
SakashiroED must be great for LAN parties. All the clients talking to each other through the same router via gigabit ethernet, super short RTT, no firewall issues, no packet loss etc.


Personal experience, you can run a wing in a CZ, with everyone using SLF's without any lag or issues. Under almost any other circumstances, using SLF's in a CZ while winged is a recipe for rubber banding and latency issues. The net code around SLF's is very non-optimized and apart from that, it adds additional ships/weapons that all require additional telemetry.
Rebecca Hail
18 Feb 2021, 6:23am
Chase Quinnell
SakashiroED must be great for LAN parties. All the clients talking to each other through the same router via gigabit ethernet, super short RTT, no firewall issues, no packet loss etc.



I'll catch flak for this, but I think peer to peer was a stupid decision on FDev's part. Cheap, lazy, and/or stupid.


It was a cost efficient decision. FDEV is a company after all.
LordPsymon
18 Feb 2021, 6:59am
If it wasn't peer-to-peer, we'd probably be paying a monthly sub for dedicated universe servers like Eve, so no, it was not a stupid idea, nor is it lazy or cheap.

Last edit: 18 Feb 2021, 7:07am
Igneel Prime
18 Feb 2021, 7:41am
Tbf in the long run p2p might just be extremely efficient. The quality might be lacking now but as time moves on and people's internet improves that can improve the game's stability at least to a certain point without FDev having to imvest a dime. Right now it seems like a shitty choice but at this right it might be entirely different and subscription models for servers might not be worth it anymore. It's a risky move but might keep the game going for a good bit longer than expected.
Sakashiro
18 Feb 2021, 8:06am
Broadband speeds may increase over time, but the issue with port forwarding will remain.

FDev also doesn't communicate this well in my opinion. There should be an in-game warning (e.g on the menu screen) if the client finds itself firewalled.

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