Elite: General talk

Hello Commanders.

Been gone from the game for about 4 to 5 months.

Last edit: 24 Sep 2022, 4:54pm

24 Sep 2022, 5:25pm

Mac4
Shg56EDH is liability for FD as corporate man - avangerdutton said, they even removed EDH from Steam only EDO is available now.

? A simple glance at the Steam page suggests this is not the case, with Odyssey still showing up as separate DLC there.

True, but Horizons is gone. There's only the base game now.

This might become important (from a legal perspective) if you access EDH4 without owning the Horizons season pass.

Mac4

24 Sep 2022, 6:13pm

Yuna Sakashiro True, but Horizons is gone. There's only the base game now.

Ah, quite. Well that is peculiar, and entirely unannounced, I think?

"Somebody is playing with my dick, and it ain't me." -- John Goodman, as Jonesy, in Fallen.

24 Sep 2022, 6:17pm

Why they should have/sell Horizons there, as it's a part of the base game (more precisely, it is the base game now)? I see no point to have Horizons listed anywhere and removing it from stores is a logical step. Doesn't matter if you bought it earlier or not, you simply have it. You are looking for problems where aren't any.

Mac4

24 Sep 2022, 7:47pm

Artieit is the base game now

Now that you mention. Think I'll retreat to the shadows with my bucket of popcorn

24 Sep 2022, 9:12pm

ArtieWhy they should have/sell Horizons there, as it's a part of the base game (more precisely, it is the base game now)? I see no point to have Horizons listed anywhere and removing it from stores is a logical step. Doesn't matter if you bought it earlier or not, you simply have it. You are looking for problems where aren't any.

Well, the problem we're dealing with is that there's no crossplay between EDO and EDH4 although it was promised early on, and that EDO players are denied access to EDH4.

As mentioned, there's a workaround for this, but is it legal? And that's when you have to think like a lawyer.

Anyone who bought EDH before it became part of the base game still has the "Horizons Season Pass" in their list of installed DLCs. And it's easy to argue that a "Horizons Season Pass" entitles you to play any version of Horizons, including 4.0, even after you bought the Odyssey DLC.

If you bought the base game after the fold-down, and then Odyssey, you technically never purchased the EDH season pass, so you have to argue from a different angle.

Of course, as long as Frontier doesn't take action, this is all purely hypothetical. But being prepared is never a bad thing.

24 Sep 2022, 10:24pm

Strictly technically, the EDH4 and EDO crossplay was promised for the Odyssey console release, which... won't happen. There was no promise of it for the EDH4 release. But I understand what you mean.

I guess the legal side of running EDH4 for EDO owners isn't a problem, although it may be a thin ice. It very likely isn't in a direct collision with T&C and as the mentions of it are on the official forum without any repercussions, it's quite safe to presume Frontier is allowing it (although they may not be exactly happy about it). In the worst case, they can do a server-side check, but I don't think it bothers them that much - just a minority of players are or will be doing that. Either way, in case of problems, the argument of such players like: "I bought Horizons before and I have a right to play Horizons 4.0" is not valid, because all its content is within EDO, so their rights aren't damaged. The have what they bought and there never was any guarantee about (a number of) other players in the game session around. Similarly as they can hardly complain that everybody else is playing solo, so they don't see anyone. Although players may not like it, Frontier's approach is clean.

25 Sep 2022, 3:07am

ArtieStrictly technically, the EDH4 and EDO crossplay was promised for the Odyssey console release, which... won't happen. There was no promise of it for the EDH4 release.

This is what many people are getting wrong. Crossplay wasn't promised for the console release but after the console release. The console release was an obstacle, not a condition. In other words it was, "We do this first, and then we do that," and not "We have to do this first because it's a prerequisite to doing that."

So the console release was what they wanted to do first, but then it was canceled. Obviously you don't need a console version of client 4.0 to implement crossplay on PCs, because one has nothing to do with the other. With the obstacle gone, crossplay should have come sooner rather than not at all.

On the other hand, Frontier doesn't even claim that the cancellation of the console release is why we didn't get crossplay. They now hide behind the PEGI rating. However, they already removed pedestrian NPCs from EDH4 surface settlements. And EDH4 supports base game mode, too. So there really is no technical reason not to allow shared EDH/EDO instances in space any more, because they already allow shared EDH/base game instances, which is basically the same problem, and it's already solved.

ArtieEither way, in case of problems, the argument of such players like: "I bought Horizons before and I have a right to play Horizons 4.0" is not valid, because all its content is within EDO, so their rights aren't damaged. The have what they bought and there never was any guarantee about (a number of) other players in the game session around.

Crossplay with Horizons was an advertised feature of Odyssey. In fact the advertisement is still online. So no one can reasonably claim that EDO players got all the content they paid for. EDO and EDH4 are exactly the same thing. The "SeasonTwo" argument merely locks all Odyssey-specific content and unlocks crossplay instead. Since crossplay is an advertised feature of EDO, unlocking it this way cannot be illegal. On the contrary, Frontier's intentional blocking of the feature constitutes false advertising.

ArtieAlthough players may not like it, Frontier's approach is clean.

Frontier's approach is anything but clean, and they know it. Which is why there's no crackdown on those who circumvent the block, and there is no server-side blocking either. Although Frontier may not like it, our approach is clean.

Kurakil

25 Sep 2022, 3:27am

As I recall we never even got everything promised for Horizons. I don't remember any specifics at the moment other than multiple SRVs, but this seems to be a trend.

25 Sep 2022, 9:11am

Yuna Sakashiro
This is what many people are getting wrong. Crossplay wasn't promised for the console release but after the console release. The console release was an obstacle, not a condition. In other words it was, "We do this first, and then we do that," and not "We have to do this first because it's a prerequisite to doing that."
...

Either way, the stated condition was not met (as the Odyssey console release won't happen).

Yuna Sakashiro
Crossplay with Horizons was an advertised feature of Odyssey. In fact the advertisement is still online. So no one can reasonably claim that EDO players got all the content they paid for. EDO and EDH4 are exactly the same thing. The "SeasonTwo" argument merely locks all Odyssey-specific content and unlocks crossplay instead. Since crossplay is an advertised feature of EDO, unlocking it this way cannot be illegal. On the contrary, Frontier's intentional blocking of the feature constitutes false advertising.

Same as in previous case, the condition (as stated in the article linked) was not met. The only trouble is that the Odyssey for consoles won't be released and if there is something that can be pointed out on those statements as a plan that wasn't fulfilled, it's this.

Yuna Sakashiro
Frontier's approach is anything but clean, and they know it. Which is why there's no crackdown on those who circumvent the block, and there is no server-side blocking either. Although Frontier may not like it, our approach is clean.

I am quite certain their lawyers ensured it's clean. I however do agree, from a non-lawyer view, that players' approach to this situation is clean as well (for the reasons mentioned earlier), unless Frontier will clearly state it's forbidden in a respect to some point of their T&C. In such case I will also need to remove all mentions about it here (and that's why I have checked the situation about it in detail earlier).

25 Sep 2022, 1:25pm

Artie
Yuna Sakashiro
This is what many people are getting wrong. Crossplay wasn't promised for the console release but after the console release. The console release was an obstacle, not a condition. In other words it was, "We do this first, and then we do that," and not "We have to do this first because it's a prerequisite to doing that."
...

Either way, the stated condition was not met (as the Odyssey console release won't happen).

Yuna Sakashiro
Crossplay with Horizons was an advertised feature of Odyssey. In fact the advertisement is still online. So no one can reasonably claim that EDO players got all the content they paid for. EDO and EDH4 are exactly the same thing. The "SeasonTwo" argument merely locks all Odyssey-specific content and unlocks crossplay instead. Since crossplay is an advertised feature of EDO, unlocking it this way cannot be illegal. On the contrary, Frontier's intentional blocking of the feature constitutes false advertising.

Same as in previous case, the condition (as stated in the article linked) was not met. The only trouble is that the Odyssey for consoles won't be released and if there is something that can be pointed out on those statements as a plan that wasn't fulfilled, it's this.

Yuna Sakashiro
Frontier's approach is anything but clean, and they know it. Which is why there's no crackdown on those who circumvent the block, and there is no server-side blocking either. Although Frontier may not like it, our approach is clean.

I am quite certain their lawyers ensured it's clean. I however do agree, from a non-lawyer view, that players' approach to this situation is clean as well (for the reasons mentioned earlier), unless Frontier will clearly state it's forbidden in a respect to some point of their T&C. In such case I will also need to remove all mentions about it here (and that's why I have checked the situation about it in detail earlier).

From a technical perspective it makes no sense that a console version of Odyssey would be required for crossplay on PCs. So I'm not quite sure why you keep calling it a condition.

Besides, the feature has been shown to exist in the current release of client 4.0, so it can no longer be claimed that the absence of a console release makes the feature impossible.

25 Sep 2022, 4:30pm

Yuna Sakashiro
From a technical perspective it makes no sense that a console version of Odyssey would be required for crossplay on PCs. So I'm not quite sure why you keep calling it a condition.

By the "condition" I mean a condition like if-then-else or in this case when-then, in respect to the statements/text written. So, "when we release Odyssey on consoles, then...", where the "when" didn't happen, so "then" will not occur (technical feasibility, etc. aside as it's irrelevant for that statement).

25 Sep 2022, 6:06pm

Artie
Yuna Sakashiro
From a technical perspective it makes no sense that a console version of Odyssey would be required for crossplay on PCs. So I'm not quite sure why you keep calling it a condition.

By the "condition" I mean a condition like if-then-else or in this case when-then, in respect to the statements/text written. So, "when we release Odyssey on consoles, then...", where the "when" didn't happen, so "then" will not occur (technical feasibility, etc. aside as it's irrelevant for that statement).

But you do agree that it's a cop-out, don't you?

Shoguun88

26 Sep 2022, 3:31am