Offtopic

Amata Lirein
02 Jan 2021, 3:23pm
Sakashiro
Rebecca HailI honestly can't see "woke culture" having enough influence in the gaming industry to make a company retroactively change a game.


There have been attempts to sanitize classic works of literature, e.g. editing the N-word out of Mark Twain's "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", so I guess it's just a matter of time. CP77 in particular was attacked by SJWs before it was even released: for sexism, racism, transphobia, cultural appropriation, etc. Some countries, e.g. China and Germany, allow only sanitized versions of video games to be sold.


Violence and sex is getting rarely censored or "sanitized" in Germany these days as long as the game gets an USK-18-rating... it only ever happens if the game is seriously glorifying the former (A few years back there was this isometric shooter game that lets you play as an homicidal maniac called "Hatred", I think that was the last time ever a game was put on the so-called "index", meaning it cannot be sold in Germany). The one thing that gets sanitized on a regular basis is everything related to the Nazis (for obvious reasons), like symbols or persons, as it was not allowed to show them in a videogame up until 2018. Since then videogames are officially classified as an artform, meaning they can use those symbols if it is either in an educational function or necessary for an historically correct representation. As this is still a rather vague definition though most developers still alter them for their games. In Wolfenstein for example you still don't see swastikas and Hitler got his mustache removed to make him less recognizable.
Rebecca Hail
02 Jan 2021, 3:27pm
Sakashiro
Rebecca HailI honestly can't see "woke culture" having enough influence in the gaming industry to make a company retroactively change a game.


There have been attempts to sanitize classic works of literature, e.g. editing the N-word out of Mark Twain's "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn", so I guess it's just a matter of time. CP77 in particular was attacked by SJWs before it was even released: for sexism, racism, transphobia, cultural appropriation, etc. Some countries, e.g. China and Germany, allow only sanitized versions of video games to be sold.


Attempts to retroactively change art or writings to the viewpoint of one or another political ideology have been made throughout history, this is hardly something new. With todays possibility it's harder than ever to actually change art and writings in a way that caters to a particular viewpoint. Even if someone would rewrite Huckleberry Finn without the n-word, that'd simply be one version among many.

China is a good example of the state straight up censoring, yes, Germany is less so. There is an array of symbols that are forbidden under German law with quite a lot of exemptions. To avoid conflicts with said law game devs usually choose to change these symbols in the localized version of their game. It's quite different from China which just straight up forbids any viewpoint that doesn't suit their leaders agenda.



Synthya WylderWithout getting into a point-by-point debate, I'm glad I struck a nerve prompting a response.

You'd asked for what political reasons might content be retroactively removed... not that you or some others might wish it to be removed, but I wouldn't be at all surprised that some might wish that.


The response was prompted by you responding to me. That's completely normal and doesn't mean that you've "struck a nerve". I do wonder where you get that impression though.

To clarify, I don't want to change any aspect of Elite Lore as it currently is and I very much doubt that the majority of people who argue against imperial slavery want that either. There's probably a couple of outliers, but I don't think that the vast majority of people is offended by the depiction of slavery.


Politicians & politics wouldn't likely directly take a public position on such things, but there is a very real "mob rule" aspect where such sentiments are passed from 1 or more to others in a form of contagion via emotions, rhetoric & sentiment... & applied as a sort of peer pressure & various demands for conformity in thoughts, decisions & actions. Think, "Sheeple".

Emotions, beliefs, etc. are far more easily & quickly propagated as they require little if any actual rational thought process.

Emotions are easy & very quick... none of us has to actively engage them, they're simply there, automatically.

Mass media & all the other myriad modern forms of social connections in our current era only facilitate it.


Sorry, but why is this relevant? Companies giving in to "mob rule" and "peer pressure" is completely normal. Their goal is to earn money and if they think that their product isn't received well by their target group, they'll change it.

Turn this around and you'll see that a company won't give a single fuck about your opinion if you're not in said target group.

Of course there is, for most things, no clear cut between target group and non-target group and reality usually isn't as straight forward as this either, but as abstraction this describes quite well how companies operate.

I'm not quite sure what you mean with "Think "Sheeple"."


Rational thought, on the other hand, has to be actively engaged, & it takes time & mental effort & the discipline & training to set aside the initial emotional reaction & engage rationality. Such is one of the major defining factors separating instinct-driven animals from the higher forms. i.e., sentient beings. Humans are descended from earlier forms of life & we can't ignore that. Rational thought is what's given rise to our civilization. The scene from the beginning of Space Odessey:2001 comes to mind...

The reasons for that stem from way back to humankind's evolution... the one who reacts with, say, fear to whatever is rustling unseen in the brush & runs away is far more likely to survive than the one who takes the time to try to figure out what the rustling is by using a rational thought process & becomes dinner for what is creating the rustling. Just an example.


That is not how rational thought processes are developed nor is it how they're pressured into evolving. A fight-or-flight instinct has nothing to do with a rational thought process and is still something humanity has to this day. On the opposite, while it is not rational thought it is rational to distance yourself from a perceived threat.

Rational thought stems from Abstract thought which in turn stems from being able to recognize and transfer patterns. And even that is incredibly simplified.

Humanity btw isn't the only species to display rational thought. There is an entire array of animals that are able to do all three steps to rational thoughts and are still way less intelligent than the average human. It is entirely possible that we're not the only species able to gain sentience on earth, but merely the first. The entirety of human history, since the appearance of the Homo Sapiens 300.000 years ago is completely insignificant in terms of evolution, so it is completely possible that another independent sentient species might follow in the next couple of millions to billions of years.


Political Correctness often comes in the form of the game age rating... & often, certainly not without good reason.

As times & attitudes change, no doubt so will be what's allowed for general consumption; no doubt, at least in part, due to 'political correctness' & peer pressure.

I'd never be so judgmental by calling your opinion "bullshit", simply that I don't necessarily agree with it. Not all the time, anyway.

Happy New Year!


Alright, one thing. I did not call your opinion bullshit, I called your example bullshit because it is. If someone discusses imperial slavery and argues for it, they're not "condemned", where ever you got that impression from.

I honestly have no idea what you mean with "Political correctness comes in the form of the game age rating."

As for times and changes, yeah well, that's how it works. O tempora, o mores. There have been times when the Overton window has shifted to the right and there have been times when the Overton window has shifted to the left. That's normal.
Artie
02 Jan 2021, 4:17pm
Calling somebody's post or a part of it as a bullshit is not an argument, it's just rude. When there is a real argument, there is no need to call it that way, as the argument itself will prove the point. So let's please remain constructive, even in the offtopic section.

About the retrospective "adjusting" of the games - what came to my mind is relatively recent adjustments of the main character of Chuchel by Amanita design, because somebody complained it's too similar to the blackface trope (although it certainly wasn't an intention). More "light" adjustments were in Rainbow Six, but there it was rather dictated by the Chinese market requirements and angry players forced Ubi to revert it back for the west. I think there was a few other cases in the recent past, too.
Sakashiro
02 Jan 2021, 4:46pm
Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas still aren't available uncut in Germany. None of those games has Nazi symbols in them or glorifies violence.

Are Germany's reasons to force developers to alter their products more laudable than China's? I guess that largely depends on whom you ask.

Either way, these examples prove that digital content can and will be altered for political reasons.
Rebecca Hail
02 Jan 2021, 5:02pm
Both games are not on the index anymore, afaik.

The german rating office had a somewhat overblown and very conservative approach to youth protection till a couple of years ago and interpreted the laws accordingly.

And no, this proves nothing of the sort.

This proves that content will be adapted to the legal framework of the country it will be sold in, like literally any other product as well.

The original premise of this discussion was: "That's one of the downsides of digital distribution: content can be retroactively altered. Not only for legal but also political reasons."
Amata Lirein
02 Jan 2021, 5:14pm
SakashiroCorrect me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, Fallout 3 and Fallout New Vegas still aren't available uncut in Germany. None of those games has Nazi symbols in them or glorifies violence.

Are Germany's reasons to force developers to alter their products more laudable than China's? I guess that largely depends on whom you ask.

Either way, these examples prove that digital content can and will be altered for political reasons.


Source of the following:

German Censorship

The drug "morphine" was renamed to "Med-X".
Blood and gore was removed from the German release.


The reason for renaming 'morphine' was that minors who might watch along or played the game with their parents' permission would not be tempted to raid their grandparents medicine cabinet for the real stuff because it increases your damage resistances. Kids can be stupid after all. So IMO it's not censorship but a safety precaution, and as you can see from that page: That change was made in all releases worldwide, so Fallout 3 was censored everywhere. And excessive gore can be rated as 'glorifying violence', so publishers usually played it safe. But over time things get more acceptable, you can see this in DOOM for example. The first ones got removed from the index, and the latest ones got released uncut as well.
Synthya Wylder
02 Jan 2021, 5:15pm
Rebecca HailBoth games are not on the index anymore, afaik.

The german rating office had a somewhat overblown and very conservative approach to youth protection till a couple of years ago and interpreted the laws accordingly.

And no, this proves nothing of the sort.

This proves that content will be adapted to the legal framework of the country it will be sold in, like literally any other product as well.

The original premise of this discussion was: "That's one of the downsides of digital distribution: content can be retroactively altered. Not only for legal but also political reasons."


I'll point out that in my opinion, you seem to contradict yourself with that post.

re: your earlier question: 1 of the many definitions of "Sheeple", but excellent in that it refers to exactly what I meant.
Amata Lirein
02 Jan 2021, 5:15pm
Rebecca HailBoth games are not on the index anymore, afaik.

The german rating office had a somewhat overblown and very conservative approach to youth protection till a couple of years ago and interpreted the laws accordingly.

And no, this proves nothing of the sort.

This proves that content will be adapted to the legal framework of the country it will be sold in, like literally any other product as well.

The original premise of this discussion was: "That's one of the downsides of digital distribution: content can be retroactively altered. Not only for legal but also political reasons."


AFAIK Fallout 3 and NV were never on the index.
Rebecca Hail
02 Jan 2021, 5:21pm
Amata Lirein
Rebecca HailBoth games are not on the index anymore, afaik.

The german rating office had a somewhat overblown and very conservative approach to youth protection till a couple of years ago and interpreted the laws accordingly.

And no, this proves nothing of the sort.

This proves that content will be adapted to the legal framework of the country it will be sold in, like literally any other product as well.

The original premise of this discussion was: "That's one of the downsides of digital distribution: content can be retroactively altered. Not only for legal but also political reasons."



AFAIK Fallout 3 and NV were never on the index.


The uncut version of Fallout 3 definitely was, iirc it was taken of the index in 2016 or so. Not sure with NV.



Synthya WylderI'll point out that in my opinion, you seem to contradict yourself with that post.

re: your earlier question: 1 of the many definitions of "Sheeple", but excellent in that it refers to exactly what I meant.


Go on and point out the contradiction then, if you would be so kind.

As for the word "Sheeple", I know what the word means, I'm just not sure whether you use it there ironically or actually mean it. It's usually used unironically by people who are prime examples of the Dunning-Kruger effect.
Sakashiro
02 Jan 2021, 7:19pm
Here's what I see when I browse Steam from an IP address in Germany:







So not only are Germans being denied access to the uncut versions of those games, they're also stuck with German language localizations. This is what you get if you combine a politically motivated rating board and digital distribution with DRM. To get access to the full versions of those games, you have to order physical copies, fake your location using a VPN, or hope that those games get re-released on GOG.
Rebecca Hail
02 Jan 2021, 7:29pm
SakashiroHere's what I see when I browse Steam from an IP address in Germany:

Show more >>

So not only are Germans being denied access to the uncut versions of those games, they're also stuck with German language localizations. This is what you get if you combine a politically motivated rating board and digital distribution with DRM. To get access to the full versions of those games, you have to order physical copies, fake your location using a VPN, or hope that those games get re-released on GOG.


Well, it was taken off the index, but that doesn't mean that they released the uncut version in German. the default version for Germany is still the censored/low violence german, which is Steams default.

And I wouldn't call this politically motivated since the board acts on behalf of youth protection and not on behalf of a particular political direction.

All these games were released quite some time ago, the responsible agency has calmed down a lot since then.
Sakashiro
02 Jan 2021, 7:54pm
But the legal framework hasn't changed, only the bias of the rating board has. If that isn't politically motivated censorship, what else is?
Amata Lirein
02 Jan 2021, 7:57pm
Rebecca Hail
SakashiroHere's what I see when I browse Steam from an IP address in Germany:

Show more >>

So not only are Germans being denied access to the uncut versions of those games, they're also stuck with German language localizations. This is what you get if you combine a politically motivated rating board and digital distribution with DRM. To get access to the full versions of those games, you have to order physical copies, fake your location using a VPN, or hope that those games get re-released on GOG.



Well, it was taken off the index, but that doesn't mean that they released the uncut version in German. the default version for Germany is still the censored/low violence german, which is Steams default.

And I wouldn't call this politically motivated since the board acts on behalf of youth protection and not on behalf of a particular political direction.

All these games were released quite some time ago, the responsible agency has calmed down a lot since then.


Especially since the publishers themselves are now responsible for giving their games a rating according to German rules and regulations. Responsible herefor is the co-called "Unterhaltungssoftware Selbstkontrolle", or "USK" for short. It translates to "Entertainment Software Self-Regulation". It's ratings are USK 0, USK 6, USK 12, USK 16 and USK 18. If the USK fears that a game might be at risk to be put onto the index they usually deny the game a rating. If the publisher still publishes their game despite of this AND it gets a request to index a game the BPjM (Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Medien", Federal Department for Media Harmful to Young Persons) gets involved and might index a game.

The BPjM can NOT index a game that got an USK rating.

A similar system exists for movies and TV series (think DVD/Blueray releases) with the "Freiwillige Selbstkontrolle der Filmwirtschaft" (Self-Regulatory Body of the Movie Industry), or "FSK".


tl;dr:

The state's regulatory authority only steps into action if the publishers themselves consider a game unsuitable for the German market.
Amata Lirein
02 Jan 2021, 7:57pm
SakashiroBut the legal framework hasn't changed, only the bias of the rating board has. If that isn't politically motivated censorship, what else is?


See my post above.
Rebecca Hail
02 Jan 2021, 8:06pm
SakashiroBut the legal framework hasn't changed, only the bias of the rating board has. If that isn't politically motivated censorship, what else is?


As Amata pointed out above, the legal framework has changed. Video games have been recognized as a form of art in Germany. That is one of the reasons why the BPJM has become a lot less heavyhanded with putting versions on the Index.

I perceive political censorship as something that has the underlying intent of promoting or hindering a specific political ideology. I, personally, cannot see how removing gore from a video game should fulfill that criteria. Sure, it sucks and it is censorship, but it isn't political censorship, imo.

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