Offtopic

06 Jan 2021, 11:41am
Sakashiro
Rebecca HailYou cherry-picked yourself examples from a pool of over 100000 cases over the last ten years and think they're for some reason relevant enough to make statements about the entire legal framework from them.


It takes just one counter-example to prove me wrong. How many examples does it take to convince you? Give me a number.


No. A single counter example would be equally insignificant in terms of statistics. Produce either a peer reviewed study that backs your claims or back your claims with expert opinions.

Despite that, you imply that I accept the court cases you provided as examples for censorship in favour of the government. I don't since there's not enough information about the case of Günter Wangerin and in the case Hans Burkhard Nix the ECHR judged:

The Court found that the national courts had provided relevant and sufficient reasons for interfering with Mr. Nix’s right to freedom of expression.


Again, a source provided by yourself. Or is the ECHR judgement not enough?

I mean, if German censorship laws are as biased as you claim and the courts act in favour of the government as much as you imply, it should be quite easy for you to produce better examples?

Besides all of this: I do not need to prove you wrong. You are the one making claims, you're the one who has to provide the evidence.

If Germany had a censorship with bias for the government it wouldn't be ranked 11th when it comes to freedom of press. There is a censorship in Germany, and that censorship is biased for democracy (or rather, against undemocratic ideologies) and also punishes the use of unconstitutional symbols if said use doesn't fall into one of the exceptions. But you'll ignore that probably again, since it doesn't fit into your narrative.


You didn't respond to this. Why?
06 Jan 2021, 11:51am
Aleksander MajjamI find the language very satisfying to the ears. Then again, anything other than boring ass English is a joy to listen to, IMO.

Search YouTube for "Mandarin ASMR". You might be in for a treat.
06 Jan 2021, 12:07pm
Rebecca HailA single counter example would be equally insignificant in terms of statistics.

It would be enough to convince me.
06 Jan 2021, 12:13pm
Sakashiro
Rebecca HailA single counter example would be equally insignificant in terms of statistics.


It would be enough to convince me.


Respond to the entire post, or don't respond at all. I'm tired of you cherry-picking arguments. If it's too much effort for you to continue, just give it up.
06 Jan 2021, 12:15pm
As I recall, it wasn't a matter of by how much, but if it occurred at all.

IMO, even one would qualify.

re: China, Taiwan, & the threat of invasion if it was officially recognized, I've always been a strong proponent of sovereignty.

If China did attack Taiwan, it would likely touch off a war.

Seems to me, given the current circumstances about just who in which country the global pandemic originated from (& a number of similar ones in the past, too), & the general global attitude towards China, China is due for some serious retribution anyway.

Not that I'm the aggressive type, nor a "hawk", but...

I strongly believe in a lethal defense.


Last edit: 06 Jan 2021, 12:23pm
06 Jan 2021, 12:20pm
Synthya WylderAs I recall, it wasn't a matter of by how much, but if it occurred at all.

IMO, even one would qualify.

This.

If indeed there are thousands of acquittals, and I just cherry-picked a few convictions, it cannot possibly be that hard to find at least one acquittal to blow my entire premise out of the water.
06 Jan 2021, 12:32pm
Aleksander Majjam
Effie Trinket
Aleksander Majjam

Saka: Judge, after seeing my evidence today, I will convince you that the moon is a crescent shape, and not round like most idiots believe.





That reminds me of the story of Happiness Stan, who wondered why the Moon hung sometimes full moon all scintillating dangly in the heavenly bode and other times only half.



Indeed!

Funny thing is that Stan listened to reason, thus becoming more knowledgeable in the end.

We should all strive to be like Stan.


Copy that
06 Jan 2021, 12:36pm
JB Threepwood
Sakashiro
Aleksander Majjama lullaby in German in a sultry tone.



Brace yourself for disappointment, because there's no way to speak German that way.



I've always found German to be a delightfully camp little accent... but that might be from growing up with 'Allo 'Allo and having a gay German work friend.


I was approached romantically by a German once. Scared the crap out of me.
06 Jan 2021, 1:05pm
Sakashiro
Synthya WylderAs I recall, it wasn't a matter of by how much, but if it occurred at all.

IMO, even one would qualify.


This.

If indeed there are thousands of acquittals, and I just cherry-picked a few convictions, it cannot possibly be that hard to find at least one acquittal to blow my entire premise out of the water.


There are thousands of acquittals but you want one acquittal for one very particular case (Merkel doing a nazi salute) and I'm not willing to look through thousands of verdicts to find that one specific case. Since you at least implied that you speak German, you should have no problems whatsoever to look for them yourself. Again, I do not need to disprove your claims.

You made the claim that the german censorship acts in favour of the current government, particularly Angela Merkel, so please go ahead and produce meaningful evidence in form of expert opinions or a study instead of the anecdotal evidence you cite constantly.

Since you continue to cherry pick what you respond to, I assume that you have no response to the point about freedom of press.

Your behaviour in this discussion continues to be dishonest and annoying.
06 Jan 2021, 1:29pm
Rebecca HailThere are thousands of acquittals but you want one acquittal for one very particular case (Merkel doing a nazi salute) and I'm not willing to look through thousands of verdicts to find that one specific case. Since you at least implied that you speak German, you should have no problems whatsoever to look for them yourself. Again, I do not need to disprove your claims.

You made the claim that the german censorship acts in favour of the current government, particularly Angela Merkel, so please go ahead and produce meaningful evidence in form of expert opinions or a study instead of the anecdotal evidence you cite constantly.

Since you continue to cherry pick what you respond to, I assume that you have no response to the point about freedom of press.

Your behaviour in this discussion continues to be dishonest and annoying.

Oh, it doesn't have to be Merkel. Any chancellor, minister, president will do.

Again, if you can't find a case, produce one. Make a parody of the Stern cover, as a proof of concept. I would accept that, too.

But I can't set the bar lower than one case, sorry. Zero evidence proves nothing.
06 Jan 2021, 1:30pm
No Merkel with a swastika, but another screenshot from Bundesfighter II Turbo, a game (as Saka pointed out) published by German public broadcasters (and therefor "state-owned"):



...how exactly is a depiction of Merkel like THIS in any way supportive of the German government? Where is Saka's percieved political censorship here? I don't see it. Can you?

The public broadcasters in Germany, both ARD (as well as its Länder-based sub-studios) and ZDF are very quick to call out the German government on their bullshit, during one installment of the Tagesschau (ARD's news program) one correspondent outright called Angels Merkel and her politics "dumb".

So no: There is almost no political censorship in Germany. The little that does exist is in order to protect what we call the "freiheitlich demokratische Grundordnung" (free democratic basic order). And I do not see any issue in that.
06 Jan 2021, 1:48pm
Sakashiro
Rebecca HailThere are thousands of acquittals but you want one acquittal for one very particular case (Merkel doing a nazi salute) and I'm not willing to look through thousands of verdicts to find that one specific case. Since you at least implied that you speak German, you should have no problems whatsoever to look for them yourself. Again, I do not need to disprove your claims.

You made the claim that the german censorship acts in favour of the current government, particularly Angela Merkel, so please go ahead and produce meaningful evidence in form of expert opinions or a study instead of the anecdotal evidence you cite constantly.

Since you continue to cherry pick what you respond to, I assume that you have no response to the point about freedom of press.

Your behaviour in this discussion continues to be dishonest and annoying.


Oh, it doesn't have to be Merkel. Any chancellor, minister, president will do.


Rebecca HailI do not need to disprove your claims.


Produce meaningful evidence or cede your claim. And no, anecdotal evidence is not meaningful evidence.


Again, if you can't find a case, produce one. Make a parody of the Stern cover, as a proof of concept. I would accept that, too.


No, why would I? I'm in a completely different legal position than the Stern, so it wouldn't be comparable either. There's no exception for arguing with people who don't understand German law either, so you'll excuse me if I don't risk breaking the law over an online argument.

And yes, your sole focus on StGB §86a alone proves that you fundamentally don't understand the German Laws you try to argue about.


But I can't set the bar lower than one case, sorry. Zero evidence proves nothing.



Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


I wonder who said that. But you'd never ever have double standards, would you?
06 Jan 2021, 2:41pm
Rebecca Hail

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


I wonder who said that. But you'd never ever have double standards, would you?

There is no double standard here, but a logical fallacy in your argument. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but you argue that it's evidence of presence. In fact it is neither of those.

I told you, it takes only one acquittal to convince me. How many convictions does it take to convince you? Is there a way to convince you at all?
06 Jan 2021, 3:03pm
Sakashiro
Rebecca Hail

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.



I wonder who said that. But you'd never ever have double standards, would you?


There is no double standard here, but a logical fallacy in your argument. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but you argue that it's evidence of presence. In fact it is neither of those.


No, I don't argue that. I never did. You argued that I should provide evidence to you to disprove your claim in the form of an arbitrary verdict and refuse to accept anything else.

You hammer this point so stubbornly because you don't want to respond to any other arguments. This behaviour is beyond childish.



I told you, it takes only one acquittal to convince me. How many convictions does it take to convince you? Is there a way to convince you at all?


And we both know that it doesn't take one acquittal to convince you. You cannot be convinced, because you don't want to be convinced. Even if I would provide a single acquittal, which I don't because I don't need to and it would take hours of work looking through verdicts of god knows how many local courts. Or did you think that there's on big database of verdicts and you simply enter a search? I said that already, but at this point I don't care anymore about convincing you, I just refuse to let your misinformation stand unchallenged.

Your pitiful attempts to shift the burden of proof to me by claiming that your anecdotal evidence is proof (which it decidedly is not) are not working.

And no, there's no way to convince me with anecdotal evidence. If you want to convince me bring either some expert opinions or show me a peer reviewed study that comes to the clear conclusion: "Germanys poltical censorship acts in favour of the current government.". As I told you already repeatedly.


Last edit: 06 Jan 2021, 3:15pm
06 Jan 2021, 3:49pm
Rebecca HailAnd no, there's no way to convince me with anecdotal evidence. If you want to convince me bring either some expert opinions or show me a peer reviewed study that comes to the clear conclusion: "Germanys poltical censorship acts in favour of the current government.".

Are there any experts or peer-reviewed studies that conclude the opposite?

If not, what makes your claim more valid than mine? I may only have anecdotal evidence, but you don't even have that. You have literally nothing. Not a single acquittal that supports your claim.

And no, freedom of the press is not the same thing as freedom of expression. Of course German media could report about the Merkel+swastika posters from Greece, Turkey, and elsewhere. But no one in Germany could use the very same images during a protest in solidarity with Greece. Those who tried were convicted, although there was a clear connection to the Greek anti-austerity protests, and no connection to right-wing ideologies. According to the courts, none of the law's exception clauses applied. However, if you compare Trump to Hitler, or some member of the opposition party, you walk away scot-free.

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