Elite roleplay: Q&A and OOC
09 Jun 2020, 12:15pm
09 Jun 2020, 1:21pm
Amata LireinI think what he was trying to say was that in Zero G it's hard to keep anything in a certain place unless you find a way to fixate it onto something. Sticky foam would achieve this, making it a more viable solution to supress fires then a gas or liquid that could head anywhere it likes to.
You nailed it.
09 Jun 2020, 1:24pm
Last edit: 09 Jun 2020, 1:41pm
09 Jun 2020, 1:48pm
Thorshammer61Foam is totally believable. Fro the NASA website: “ The ISS presently uses two different types of fire extinguishers: a water foam extinguisher in the Russian Segments, and a carbon dioxide extinguisher in the United States Orbital Segments, which include Columbus and Kibo pressurized elements.”. Halon would not be a good choice. It displaces Oxygen...and in my fire training when I was in the military...you absolutely don’t want to use it in an enclosed space...just like it suffocates fire...it will suffocate a human.
ISS, which is a zero G space station, uses Carbon Dioxide, which I also mentioned, which is a gas.
Carbon dioxide displace oxygen too, same as any other gas. Halon actually doesn't work primarily by that principle in suffocating a fire however, it prevent the reaction of fire, and you need it in lower concentrations than needed for carbon dioxide.
Please note that our personas are in the spaceship in suits with life support. What do you think happens when your canopy is blown out? Not only oxygen, but the entire atmosphere is displaced. But we're fine, because we got space suits with automatic visors.
That said, I don't know what's used in lore. If there's no mention of a technology in lore, for Sci-fi I would argue that what would be used in the future is atleast not worse than we got now, unless given a lore reason. On the topic of fire extinguishing, I would personally assume that they use something that's better than current. That means both fast acting and prevention of damage/cleaning of components; since you're isolated in space you can't afford to have components stop functioning.
I don't think foam would be unusable, I just think it is less practical if you can't use the component before cleaning, and as such would think it's not what's in common use.
Last edit: 09 Jun 2020, 2:21pm
09 Jun 2020, 2:27pm
I don’t doubt that there will be improvements in suppression technology....just stated foam was a believable option...to me at least.
09 Jun 2020, 2:41pm
Thorshammer61As I said...In relation to the story...Foam is believable. Again, From the NASA website: “The ISS presently uses two different types of fire extinguishers: a water foam extinguisher in the Russian Segments....”
I don’t doubt that there will be improvements in suppression technology....just stated foam was a believable option...to me at least.
Like I originally said; I find it impractical to use a foam which render a component useless until the foam can be cleaned out. That's why I would find a gas system more believable, especially in a hard to clean place such as electro-mechanical panels.
I don't object to the use of foam in itself, and the comment on ISS was because you said Halon would not be a good choice due to displacing oxygen, but in the same quote from NASA they do use carbon dioxide which does the exact same thing.
I think foam can be believable, but I have questions regarding the form presented in the story. That's why I asked if there was any source on that type.
09 Jun 2020, 2:47pm
09 Jun 2020, 4:32pm
09 Jun 2020, 7:15pm
Synthya WylderDo you think it plausible that the use of foam as a fire suppressant is just one of the options available for those situations mentioned above? I'm thinking, said foam might automatically break down/decompose to some sort of preserving/insulating residue after a general set period of time... just a thought. I'm imagining that the developers of such foam especially when used in spacecraft, would have given lots of consideration as to when & how it might be used... perhaps not an optimum choice at the moment & in the situation as described in the RP, but after all, its release was the result of a cross-wiring hack, as it were...
Sure, I can see how a foam could be used in a spaceship. However, any implementation where any residue is leftover which require manual cleaning (or which can't easily be done by a separate system from within the ship) I see as unlikely.
What specific situation would this specific foam fire suppression system be made for? Leaving behind a residue which inhibit the ability of any system to function seems highly dangerous in a space ship. Keep in mind that the design case would be a space ship in operation. The fire suppression system must be so robust as to not put the ship and crew in any more danger than the fire produced in the first place.
What is a foam accomplishing that a gaseous fire suppressant can not? You don't need it to stick if you flood the space with a gas (inert such as carbon dioxide or argon, or preventing the fire chain reaction such as halon or others more modern but less well known). A gas is only a danger to crew even without helmets if it got acute toxicity at the concentrations used, or if exposure is long enough that suffocation can happen. Both of those cases should be trivial to prevent. In the case of some already existing fire supressents, there is no maximum egress time at even the highest design fire supressing concentration, so systems which can be used with people in the space arguably already exists. Many of these existing gasses have a high global warming potential which may limit their widespread use today, but that's hardly a problem in an artificial environment.
09 Jun 2020, 7:25pm
These systems are non-ozone depleting with short atmospheric lives. They are non-conductive, as well as non-corrosive which protects against damage caused by the act of extinguishing the fire as with other suppression agents like chemicals and water. In addition, they leave no residue and, as a result, avoid costly and time-consuming post-fire cleanups.
Being non-conductive, the performance of electronics being filled with the substance would be severely hampered, if not outright impossible, given the necessity of electrical impulses through the conducting wires of the circuit boards. While the foam solution may not be an ideal one, as previously mentioned, this is a system meant to operate in zero-g, meaning what gasses and liquids would be far less predictable and reliable than one that adheres to surfaces and leaves no residue behind, either through manual cleaning or eventual evaporation.
That being said, given that there are other options available such as hand extinguishers and venting the cabin — both of which, I will point out, had already been mentioned in the RP post in question — a foam suppression system would likely be reserved for extreme circumstances and localized fire suppression only. The COVAS is likely intelligent enough that, in an emergency situation, the highest risk area or flashpoint of a fire within a console can be isolated and discreetly extinguished with a minimal amount of foam.
Triggering every foam dispenser in the cabin at once would be far outside the design specifications of the system, which is why hot-wiring it would be required.
It should also be noted that doing so it not without its risks, as the character in this case was badly burned by the action. Results could have been fatal.
I would simply rather not kill my character at this time.
I am willing to entertain any further questions you might have.
09 Jun 2020, 8:20pm
I realise this can be a highly technical subject, and maybe that's where some slight misunderstandings come from;
Jason Frimantle
Being non-conductive, the performance of electronics being filled with the substance would be severely hampered, if not outright impossible, given the necessity of electrical impulses through the conducting wires of the circuit boards. While the foam solution may not be an ideal one, as previously mentioned, this is a system meant to operate in zero-g, meaning what gasses and liquids would be far less predictable and reliable than one that adheres to surfaces and leaves no residue behind, either through manual cleaning or eventual evaporation.
An electronic device does use electrical signals through wires etc like you say. However, this is exactly the reason why you want to use a non-conducting medium on them! If you use a conducting medium, you will create a short circuit (often called arc flash or arc blast), likely damaging the electronics, and probably making the fire worse. This is even mentioned where you quoted from the manufacturer;
They are non-conductive, as well as non-corrosive which protects against damage caused by the act of extinguishing the fire as with other suppression agents like chemicals and water.
Note that corrosive means basically rust, which can also damage the circuits directly ("snapping" wires etc).
What I caught from the story itself which made myself post here was this part:
Jason FrimantleIn moments, foam would begin to fill the internal spaces of those areas; a stable mass of small, air-filled bubbles with a lower density than oil, gasoline, or water that would well up and gush out of the seams in the panels and metal cowlings, rendering any input from the cockpit useless until the systems could be cleaned out and repaired.
That to me seem a weird design. The quote from the manufacturer also mentioned this:
In addition, they leave no residue and, as a result, avoid costly and time-consuming post-fire cleanups.
I understand that I may come across as nitpicking, but being a technically minded person I felt I needed to share my input on this specific situation. I don't mean to offend you or your writing in any way. Keep up the good work!
Last edit: 09 Jun 2020, 8:25pm
09 Jun 2020, 9:03pm
09 Jun 2020, 9:19pm
Jason FrimantleNo worries! Our skills don't improve if they're not challenged from time to time. I appreciate the feedback and I'm glad you're enjoying the scene!
That's a great mentality to have! Keep up the good work!
09 Jun 2020, 11:19pm
I mean, if we were to go nit-picking every detail for the sake of the former, the latter would never get a chance to flower.
It's hard enough to gather the creative motivation & inspiration as it is. If I thought I had to pass that kind of scrutiny in every single detail in my own writing, why, it's likely I wouldn't be writing (here) at all.
On the other hand, in support of plausibility, I do spend an inordinate amount of time & effort, lots more than the writing itself, when I do finally arrange all the stars & planets in the heavens above to actually sit down, crack my mental fingers & set my thoughts to writing.
Just my thoughts & suggestions.
With my respects.
09 Jun 2020, 11:43pm