Elite roleplay: Q&A and OOC

Sakashiro
28 Aug 2020, 1:03am
Kyndi the Badass Space ChickThe issue with colored dialogue text is that it comes off as an amateurish crutch.

The issue of colored text is related to the medium we're publishing in. The web has developed a set of rules that is different from the rules we apply to paper. People are used to seeing colored hyperlinks within text. Text on Inara is not black on white, but white on grey, with added drop shadows. Although I don't use colored text myself, I'm not entirely opposed to it if it matches the theme of the website. For example, orange and blue work well here because they match the site and the UI design of the game. So if you absolutely have to use colors for some reason, I'd recommend these two.

I've tried to format my own story according to paper rules, but it's difficult to do this on the web. For example, paper uses indentation to mark paragraphs, and blank lines to mark sections. By default, the web does not support indentation in plain text. Leading white space submitted through forms gets stripped. If you use block paragraphs for dialog, you'll end up with a lot of one-liners separated by blank lines, which looks horrible. The alternative is indentation via   characters, but the problem with those is that you can't enter them with Android's default keyboard app. There are workarounds, but you can see where this is going. Colored text provides an easy way out of this problem.
Kyndi the Badass Space Chick
28 Aug 2020, 1:12am
Sakashiro
Kyndi the Badass Space ChickThe issue with colored dialogue text is that it comes off as an amateurish crutch.


The issue of colored text is related to the medium we're publishing in. The web has developed a set of rules that is different from the rules we apply to paper. People are used to seeing colored hyperlinks within text. Text on Inara is not black on white, but white on grey, with added drop shadows. Although I don't use colored text myself, I'm not entirely opposed to it if it matches the theme of the website. For example, orange and blue work well here because they match the site and the UI design of the game. So if you absolutely have to use colors for some reason, I'd recommend these two.

I've tried to format my own story according to paper rules, but it's difficult to do this on the web. For example, paper uses indentation to mark paragraphs, and blank lines to mark sections. By default, the web does not support indentation in plain text. Leading white space submitted through forms gets stripped. If you use block paragraphs for dialog, you'll end up with a lot of one-liners separated by blank lines, which looks horrible. The alternative is indentation via   characters, but the problem with those is that you can't enter them with Android's default keyboard app. There are workarounds, but you can see where this is going. Colored text provides an easy way out of this problem.


It's true; Inara's formatting is quite basic compared to, say MS Word or Goggle Docs.

Still, the lack of indentation doesn't make it even remotely difficult to signal when a character is about to speak. It isn't quite what you'd see in a paper, but the use of colored text is still by no means necessary.
Sakashiro
28 Aug 2020, 1:39am
Kyndi the Badass Space ChickStill, the lack of indentation doesn't make it even remotely difficult to signal when a character is about to speak. It isn't quite what you'd see in a paper, but the use of colored text is still by no means necessary.

I just looked at a few of your logbook entries. I found paragraphs indented and separated by blank lines at the same time. That's not what you'd see in published novels either. I also found some colored text, albeit not for dialog. I found text pre-formatted with CRLF to make the result appear more book-like.

Looks like we're all aware of the problems but coming up with different workarounds.
Synthya Wylder
28 Aug 2020, 2:22am
Here are some suggestions then, & some things I humbly & respectfully offer that you (the critics) may wish to consider.

You have a valid point. However, not all here are as accomplished, or even experienced writers. I don't even regard myself as falling into either of those groups. I've no idea as to how many are even fluent in English, or that it's their 2nd tongue. I'm comfortable betting that exceedingly few if any are professional writers.

I do love the creativity & cooperative dedicated effort involved in all those writing the roleplays. I often see things that I'd like to point out or correct or improve upon, but I also realize that (& I'm guessing here) most are probably here in conjunction with playing E:D & that Inara in general & the RPs in particular, may be more incidental to the game.

Perhaps, offering some basic constructive tips & conventions you'd recommend, geared to casual &/ inexperienced writers. Or perhaps as an alternative, a site-link to a resource for those (I realize that actually running such a class or resource yourself is not an insignificant task!).

When one is adept in their craft, it's far too easy to fall into the trap of thinking everyone else is as adept &/ knows as much &/ is as experienced; & when they might be perceived as lacking for one or more reasons, equally as easy to come across as haughty, or condescending or overly sharp in criticism, no matter how helpful the intent.

I'll say this bluntly, that I've even considered killing Synthya off & ending that story, due to my frustration draining any initiative with some of the opprobrium I've read, & particularly the way that it was presented. I'm hoping that will improve.

I mentioned a while ago that I often find helpful, a site called Grammarly. It's free, but it's mainly to help with suggesting spelling & punctuation corrections &/ improvements.

Interactive written roleplay has it's own unique challenges & is hampered by the lack of any means to express things beyond the mere text.

Perhaps, it's my years in politics & diplomacy that has me offering all this... in the hopes that it improves the venue & becomes more encouraging & inviting to other RPers. I mean, to me at least, few things are more inhibiting to expressing oneself in a creative way than to constantly fear & worry about displaying something one creates being viewed & criticized under the harsh spotlight of a microscope.

I thank you for your time & yield the floor.
JB Threepwood
28 Aug 2020, 2:52pm
Well put, Synthya.

As someone who is only now getting into collaborative RP, one of my biggest worries was coming into an established forum and having my work ripped to shreds by the other members. I think ED has a really warm and welcoming community anayway, and the RP here seems the same. It would be a shame if people who want to join in were put off by negative comments where constructive criticism should be.
Synthya Wylder
28 Aug 2020, 3:04pm
JB ThreepwoodWell put, Synthya.

As someone who is only now getting into collaborative RP, one of my biggest worries was coming into an established forum and having my work ripped to shreds by the other members. I think ED has a really warm and welcoming community anayway, and the RP here seems the same. It would be a shame if people who want to join in were put off by negative comments where constructive criticism should be.


IMO, criticism is fine, so long as it's constructive. Part of being constructive is the choice of words & phrases used.

I don't mean the 'CareBear' fashion your mother might have used when we all were kids.

I do appreciate constructive input & feedback from those with differing views & ideas, especially from those more accomplished than I.
Synthya Wylder
28 Aug 2020, 3:09pm
In politics, there's a saying... 'The art of politics is being able to tell someone to go take a dump in their hat & have them thank you for it.'

Another version of that goes, 'The art of politics is being able to tell someone to go to hell & have them looking forward to the trip.'

It's all in the wording.
JB Threepwood
28 Aug 2020, 3:12pm
I totally agree.
Sakashiro
28 Aug 2020, 3:45pm
Btw, none of Jubei's or Kyndi's criticism was targeting content. This is only about presentation.

I, for one, prefer strongly worded criticism to the absence thereof. People who don't care about your work won't spend their time criticizing it.
Artie
28 Aug 2020, 4:10pm
Just two notes about formatting:
- I do not recommend to use Inara's orange color for the text highlighting, because it will appear same as an active link and it will be confusing to readers.
- The paragraph indentation is usually made by vertical space between paragraphs on the web. In the print, the paragraphs are solved by first line indent instead of vertical space between, because it's cheaper (you need to print less pages with the same amount of text). On the web, you do not need to solve that and also the vertical space helps the legibility on the screens. Using vertical space and first line indent at once is redundant and doesn't help the legibility further (rather the opposite). Technically, it's easy to make it automatically via CSS, but there is no need for that.
Creamy Goodness III
28 Aug 2020, 4:53pm
SakashiroBtw, none of Jubei's or Kyndi's criticism was targeting content. This is only about presentation.




True, but I was named and shamed as the one that started the coloured text debate and plenty of people took the opportunity to say what they felt about that. By default, that meant it was aimed in my general direction.

Fortunately, Jubel is a good dude and sorted out the point of contention that was highlighted by someone else; who BTW got accused of trying to start a fight for asking a fairly worded question. A question I was going to ask as well.

Criticism online is much like the thanks I get for doing my job from the customer.

I go out my way to help out a customer, but the customer doesn't care how much skill and experience I've called on even if I have just performed a lil miracle. It works or it doesn't, that's all they care about.

Very few people go out their way to make a point of saying thank you for what I have done for them.
You can bet they are chomping at the bit to imply I'm bad at my job and demand their money back if it doesn't work perfectly. It's amazing how many people are experts that know far more than me about my job when they got a complaint.

That's the same as commenting about someone's story. It takes very little effort to point out what you don't like about it.
Most online criticism is not criticism in the form of evaluating the writing, it's picking out something a person doesn't like and venting about.

When ya write something adequate, no one says anything. It's adequate, why should they?

When ya write something good, if ya lucky, someone may take the time to say "Oh that was good" but only if the stars are aligned or you managed something truly epic.

Write something someone doesn't like. Well, it's a "Hold my Pint" situation. They are lining up to point out something sub stand once the first voice gets the ball rolling.  

I'm good with criticism, but I like balanced application of what I've made, not people that pick on one aspect and call it criticism. If someone wants to take their time to read what I've offered up, then I won't make it hard to do so by using a colored text that blends with the background. That's a good point well made that should be listened to. I will however continue using coloured text coz I like it.

I can't please everyone, and I wouldn't try. I'm usually happy with what I've typed out and I hope it helps the people I'm writing with continue the narrative.

Watch this guy to see how I think criticism should be delivered.



Last edit: 28 Aug 2020, 5:45pm
Sakashiro
28 Aug 2020, 5:34pm
Artie - The paragraph indentation is usually made by vertical space between paragraphs on the web. In the print, the paragraphs are solved by first line indent instead of vertical space between, because it's cheaper (you need to print less pages with the same amount of text). On the web, you do not need to solve that and also the vertical space helps the legibility on the screens. Using vertical space and first line indent at once is redundant and doesn't help the legibility further (rather the opposite). Technically, it's easy to make it automatically via CSS, but there is no need for that.

Modern typography uses first-line indentation to separate paragraphs, and vertical space to separate sections (i.e. subdivisions of chapters). If vertical space is used to separate paragraphs instead, an alternative method needs to be used to separate sections, e.g. an asterism (⁂).

The problem with text submitted via HTML forms is that the receiving web server doesn't know the intention of the author. It can see the line break in the text but cannot tell whether it marks the end of a line or the end of a paragraph. So it cannot automatically apply the <p> tags required for the CSS text-indent property to work.

The workaround I use is to start indented paragraphs with three &nbsp; characters, followed by a space, followed by the paragraph body. On Windows the &nbsp; can be inserted into plain text by holding Alt while typing 0160.
Artie
28 Aug 2020, 5:58pm
Yes, but that's still about the paper. On the web, the indentation of paragraphs by vertical space (and with no first line indent) is perfectly alright. The problem of the workaround described is that it actually adds content (non-breakable space) for pure formatting. It's a very messy way how to do that and it will fire back in a case such formatting is added to the paragraphs via CSS later (it will unintentionally increase the indent). It's bending of "paper typography" while utilizing also web paragraph formatting and the result is quite a mess. I do not recommend doing that, it's not necessary, but up to anybody.
Sakashiro
28 Aug 2020, 7:10pm
Creamy Goodness III When ya write something adequate, no one says anything. It's adequate, why should they?

When ya write something good, if ya lucky, someone may take the time to say "Oh that was good" but only if the stars are aligned or you managed something truly epic.

Write something someone doesn't like. Well, it's a "Hold my Pint" situation. They are lining up to point out something sub stand once the first voice gets the ball rolling.

That's one way to look at it. Another one is this:

If people don't say anything (and don't klick the "shiny" button either), it's not because they found your story adequate but because they didn't read it. Or maybe they stopped reading after a few lines because it failed to keep their interest. These people will not criticize your story; they will simply move on.

If people say "Oh that was good", it's because your story touched them in a particular way, and they wish to read more of it. They may not even be able to explain why they like your story; they just know they do, and that's what matters.

If people line up to criticize something, it means they have read your story and care enough about it to point out a flaw and possible ways to improve it. There are many logbook entries with colored text on Inara, but Jubei singled out yours because that's the one he cares about. The absence of colored text won't magically improve a bad story, but a good story can be wasted if the way it is presented makes it hard to read or even inaccessible to people with bad eyesight, so that's a fair point.
Michael Wolfe
28 Aug 2020, 8:00pm
Sakashiro makes good points. Giving one's opinion on the use of colored dialogue text isn't "naming and shaming". Also, it was rightly pointed out that my feedback was about presentation in general, not anyone's logbook content.

Also, we should keep in mind that actual feedback from one's readers is rare. Don't take it personally if you release a bit of work but get crickets in return!

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