Elite: Game talk

Sakashiro
22 Nov 2022, 11:33am
EpisparhSee, that is the problem. You do not need a troll explorer Phantom. A non bi-weave Phantom can have same shield value and speed and boost interval with ~60ly jump range.

The shield on exploration build is not to sustain constant beating by low waking in Shin Dez but to give you enough time to high wake plus extra protection in landing, etc.


Build for open do not mean that you need to sacrifice main ship purpose in order to troll gankers.

The bi-weave is not for trolling but for dealing with chain interdictions like these. That example was just one trip to Jameson Memorial. You'll never reach your destination if you go against a wing and your shield takes forever to recharge. They'll wear you down, and then you'll high-wake back to square one. You have to wear them down instead, and you do that by equipping shields that bounce back to 100% in no time, putting the gankers back to square one with each interdiction.

This is not just about surviving a gank, it's about breaking through blockades and going to places even when the system is buzzing with murderboats and everyone is trying to kill you.

Besides, 50Ly is a decent jump range for a ship that can barely jump 30Ly without engineering. To get 60Ly out of it, you have to engineer with the solo button in mind, and that means you're not serious about playing in open. Logging out means losing.
Episparh
22 Nov 2022, 11:46am
Why you think that you need to break through blockades with exploration ship?

And as I said UNX Valiant have 60ly and same shield capacity as your Phantom. I fly it confidently in open but it is not a ship to break through blockade. If I end in one, I will highwake and get a proper ship for the task.
Sakashiro
22 Nov 2022, 3:12pm
EpisparhWhy you think that you need to break through blockades with exploration ship?

Maybe there's a CG where you have to hand in exploration data at one particular station or megaship. We've had these before.

EpisparhIf I end in one, I will highwake and get a proper ship for the task.

Well, this is a proper ship for the task.
Episparh
22 Nov 2022, 4:33pm
Yuna Sakashiro
Maybe there's a CG where you have to hand in exploration data at one particular station or megaship. We've had these before.

Exploration data is not bound to a ship. You can collect it with proper exploration ship and then deliver it with a proper ship to break through blokade.

Yuna Sakashiro
Well, this is a proper ship for the task.


Apparently it is not. You cannot outrun an Orca or Clipper and they will eat your shield for breakfast while ramming you and delivering PA or Frag hits.
The fact that you haven't met a ship that can negate the advantages of your build vs common FDLs and so on, do not mean that those builds do not exist.
Sakashiro
23 Nov 2022, 12:51am
Episparh
Yuna Sakashiro
Maybe there's a CG where you have to hand in exploration data at one particular station or megaship. We've had these before.


Exploration data is not bound to a ship. You can collect it with proper exploration ship and then deliver it with a proper ship to break through blokade.

Yuna Sakashiro
Well, this is a proper ship for the task.



Apparently it is not. You cannot outrun an Orca or Clipper and they will eat your shield for breakfast while ramming you and delivering PA or Frag hits.
The fact that you haven't met a ship that can negate the advantages of your build vs common FDLs and so on, do not mean that those builds do not exist.

Earlier you said my builds are not prepared to handle long-range rails that go brrrrrrrr. Now it's the ramming Orcas and Clippers with PAs I need to worry about.
Episparh
23 Nov 2022, 5:16am
Yuna Sakashiro
Earlier you said my builds are not prepared to handle long-range rails that go brrrrrrrr. Now it's the ramming Orcas and Clippers with PAs I need to worry about.


* Early I said that your APEX is vulnerable to long range rails . You cannot prepare it anyway or anyhow due to ship's limitation.
** Now I was talking about your Phantom in particular as it have enough shields to survive long range fire but as I said there are ships which can ram it while gun it. At the end it is a crippled exploration ship that may get well vs gank of 3 but it is nowhere near suited to break a proper blockade where you have multiple wings and non conventional PvP builds.
Sakashiro
23 Nov 2022, 8:57am
Episparh
Yuna Sakashiro
Earlier you said my builds are not prepared to handle long-range rails that go brrrrrrrr. Now it's the ramming Orcas and Clippers with PAs I need to worry about.



* Early I said that your APEX is vulnerable to long range rails . You cannot prepare it anyway or anyhow due to ship's limitation.
** Now I was talking about your Phantom in particular as it have enough shields to survive long range fire but as I said there are ships which can ram it while gun it. At the end it is a crippled exploration ship that may get well vs gank of 3 but it is nowhere near suited to break a proper blockade where you have multiple wings and non conventional PvP builds.

You seem to believe my SOP is to always low-wake. It isn't. There are situations that even the Cutter can't low-wake out of, i.e. when it's chased by another Cutter. The Adder can't low-wake when it's chased by a Courier. Clippers can't mass-lock Kraits, but Orcas can, and so can other Kraits.

I always target a star system after submitting to player interdictions, but the rest of my response is situational. I low-wake immediately if I can because it shortens exposure to incoming fire. Sometimes I low-wake after getting out of mass-lock range. Sometimes I high-wake. It depends.

Whatever your Krait can handle, mine can handle as well. The only difference is that mine will recover four times faster, which makes it harder to stop. If I wanted to increase my jump range, I would rather drop the four mine launchers and the repair limpet controller that I'll never use anyway. The whole point of that build is to serve as a gank-proof explorer example, and some people would say an exploration ship is crippled if it comes without self-repair capability. Is it crippled because it jumps only 50Ly at a time? I went to Salomé's Reach with a 40Ly Courier, so I don't really see the problem here. At the edge of the galaxy, fleet carriers will always out-jump you anyway, even if you bring a cardboard Anaconda. People have been ganked at Beagle Point though, so a gank-proof build isn't only useful in the core systems. Wherever there are fleet carriers, there may be murderboats.

However, any build that cannot pass through blockades is by definition not gank-proof. Blockade running is the ultimate test, and the four engineered ships you see in my hangar have passed it multiple times. If I had to rank them, I'd say the Courier is the best, followed by Cutter, Krait and Adder in that order. Which is why I still recommend the Courier as a starter ship to learn gank evasion. It's the most forgiving one if you don't follow protocol, so it's great for experimenting and finding out what works and what doesn't.

Why make proof-of-concept builds like these? To get more people out of solo into open, that's why. I may try other ship types soon to see how they hold up. Suggestions are welcome.
Meowers
23 Nov 2022, 10:17am
Yuna SakashiroTo get more people out of solo into open
Open doesn't have high-res screenshots
Episparh
23 Nov 2022, 10:24am
You still missing the point. I will try to explain it for the last time:

Exploration build purpose:
Be able to travel and explore distant places while being able to mitigate danger and damage from environment or enemies
Usage:
Time spend in exploration 99.999%. Time in risk of ganking 0.001%.

Your exploration Phantom
* pros - recover shield faster thus can avoid sequential interdictions
* cons - slower refueling time, lower jump range (removing mine launchers and limpet controller won't help you with jump range, that is not iCourier)

Conclusion: You cripple your main ship purpose to be able to sequentially escape FDLs.

My exploration Phantom
* pros - great jump range, best fuel scooping rate, shield strong enough to handle one interdiction.
* cons - cannot troll gankers by constantly returning to their hotspot (if I want to do that I will use other ships)

Conclusion: I have exploration ship that can escape occasional gank.

P.S. If trolling gankers is your thing, you are on correct path but do not forget that there is ALWAYS a counter build. Eventually someone will get annoyed and will teach you that simple fact the hard way.
Orca counter for your Phantom
https://edsy.org/s/vrkqKc4


Yuna Sakashiro
Why make proof-of-concept builds like these? To get more people out of solo into open, that's why. I may try other ship types soon to see how they hold up. Suggestions are welcome.

Just remember that "surviving in Open" != "constantly provoking gankers". As for suggestions - try the Orca or iClipper.

Last edit: 23 Nov 2022, 11:13am
Sakashiro
23 Nov 2022, 12:56pm
EpisparhConclusion: I have exploration ship that can escape occasional gank.

Only with plenty of luck, because your ship is slow, and your shields are garbage. Your thermal resistance is less than half of mine, and with four pips to SYS you can boost only once every 14 seconds, which is a joke. Maybe there's some magical unicorn build that can take down my ship, but regular gankers can take down yours, no doubt about that.

You seem to believe your build is some sort of gold standard, and any deviation from it is either too little or too much. I suggest you take your ship where I take mine, and see how it goes.

EpisparhP.S. If trolling gankers is your thing, you are on correct path but do not forget that there is ALWAYS a counter build. Eventually someone will get annoyed and will teach you that simple fact the hard way.

You don't get it. The reason why I troll gankers is because they try harder to kill me when they are annoyed. I want to meet that counter build. This is the only way to get meaningful results.

EpisparhOrca counter for your Phantom

Bring it on!
Episparh
23 Nov 2022, 1:37pm
My ship is not gold standard but yours is extremely paranoic. If you ask a solo player to drop down 40% jump range for the ability to troll gankers they will just remain in solo.

For the record: I use 4 pips to eng, 2 to system while submitting to interdiction + my ship distributor is full and I can boost twice even with 0 pips to engines. At the end I just need 15 sec. If occasional gank kills it - it is bad luck or me making terrible mistakes.

For the field test, I will disappoint you as I do not have the build nor I have desire to login and make one. (It is not like I can easily prove you that sidewinder or iCourier cannot keep 6 o'clock to engineered corvette)
Try to understand the build values through your experience. +40m/s speed advantage and 350 dmg alpha strike 60% of which is absolute. It will mass lock your Phantom and will drop your shields in first ram.

Last edit: 23 Nov 2022, 1:50pm
Sakashiro
23 Nov 2022, 2:46pm
EpisparhMy ship is not gold standard but yours is extremely paranoic. If you ask a solo player to drop down 40% jump range for the ability to troll gankers they will just remain in solo.

For the record: I use 4 pips to eng, 2 to system while submitting to interdiction + my ship distributor is full and I can boost twice even with 0 pips to engines. At the end I just need 15 sec. If occasional gank kills it - it is bad luck or me making terrible mistakes.

For the field test, I will disappoint you as I do not have the build nor I have desire to login and make one. (It is not like I can easily prove you that sidewinder or iCourier cannot keep 6 o'clock to engineered corvette)
Try to understand the build values through your experience. +40m/s speed advantage and 350 dmg alpha strike 60% of which is absolute. It will mass lock your Phantom and will drop your shields in first ram.

No, it won't.

Have you ever rammed someone at a relative speed of 40m/s? This is the kind of collision that frequently happens inside space stations.

By the way, my Krait did get rammed at full speed by a ganker in front of a station just three weeks ago. And one of my older Courier builds (class 3 bi-weave, thermal resistant) was rammed head-on by a Cutter about a year ago. Shields did not drop, and I got away with zero damage.

As to the plasmas, you must be thinking that I straight-line after submitting.

But hey, I hope someone will build that ship and try it on me. It'll be a learning experience either way.
Meowers
23 Nov 2022, 2:48pm
Oh, come on, he just tries to convince you he knows the game better.
Episparh
23 Nov 2022, 4:41pm
Sigh. Whatever
Miseri
23 Nov 2022, 6:15pm
What did you mean by Open doesnt have High-res screen shots is that for real or just joking:?

On a side note since we were talking about building ships and such to avoid ganks
Man i could not even take part in this whole kingfisher stuff because the system was just crawling with them when ever I tried to make a delivery, most players ive seen in a while.
Im not sure if it was just more active or maybe im just not welcome in Andavandul

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