Elite: Game talk

Glen van Ross
18 Mar 2024, 5:30pm
Well, as you know, in Project Seraph he oversaw the abduction of the vulnerable, and their physical/mental modification to interface with a Thargoid scout ship. That's pretty evil in my books. If we did the same thing to cure cancer, it might be for a valiant cause... But the methods matter. They speak to who we are.

I agree with the Aegis criticisms, but that may be because I'm already indoctrinated with too many "Law of Armed Conflict" briefings. If we were in dire straights, watching our borders get pushed back, and calculated that a few billion people would die if we didn't immediately air-fry a few million in Titan captivity, then there would be a good case for it. FDev, for whatever reasons (may be as simple as firing too many writers), decided not to give us any back-and-forth in Galnet or much of an in-game story justification.

I guess they are just anxious to get the war over with and move on to the next thing. I'm collecting my Space Barbie decals because that's my jam, but it's hard to feel good about it.
Haraldsen
18 Mar 2024, 7:35pm
I’m still hoping for some surprise arch in the story. Maybe destroying those Titans could alert other powers to what’s going on here? Let’s have a guardian construct visiting us. Or maybe that Nemesis technology is related to them and Salvation using that stuff wakes them up.

I just wouldn’t like one Titan simply going down after the other. That’s just too easy.

As to morals, shoot someone walking on the street and you’re a murderer, shoot two in a war and it makes you a hero. Everything is just a matter of circumstances. Who would truly care if some scientist sacrificed a bunch of people if it saved mankind in the end? It’s mostly those who aren’t successful who will be judged. Everything else is a numbers game, some died so many can live.

Last edit: 18 Mar 2024, 7:45pm
Kasumi Goto
18 Mar 2024, 7:49pm
Glen van RossWell, as you know, in Project Seraph he oversaw the abduction of the vulnerable, and their physical/mental modification to interface with a Thargoid scout ship. That's pretty evil in my books. If we did the same thing to cure cancer, it might be for a valiant cause... But the methods matter. They speak to who we are.

Might be the case, I was actually specifically referring to post-Proteus Salvation(or should we call him Nemesis now... nah, that's going to give too much credit to him, even compared to the other nickname). Might not be a 'good guy' in the textbook example - who ever is? - but I don't really believe the theory of turning on humanity. Unless it's not really the 'human' Salvation/Caleb Wycherley but just a crazed AI that inherited his memories and personality. Which would be so much worse.

And I'm sure we'll get a plot twist. Not sure how convinced I am the Titans are totally fully dead, but at the same time, fixing up what remains would be one big repair job. To the point it'd as well be building a new Titan entirely. Or... I don't know, 80-90% of one.
Vasil Vasilescu
18 Mar 2024, 7:55pm
Glen van Ross I agree with the Aegis criticisms, but that may be because I'm already indoctrinated with too many "Law of Armed Conflict" briefings...


Then you have those pesky rules of engagement. To paraphrase the opening line from the movie, Patton, You don't win a war by dying for your country, you win by making the other poor bastard die for his country.

From what I've read, that is how the Guardians forced the Thargoids back, by using overwhelming force over a protracted period of time until the Thargoids no longer had the will for continued aggression.

Glen van RossI guess they are just anxious to get the war over with and move on to the next thing.


I think there was a missed opportunity not having more (I mean ANY) division about the proposed solution and how that would have affected the war.
  • I see the Empire going all-in with the solution and making the difficult decision to proceed for the benefit humankind (and the Empire) as a whole and to prevent a longer, more deadly war.. Maybe Smurfette would oppose the decision, but Patreus would probably be gung-ho.
  • For the Feds, Winters could want to find a better solution, but Hudson could be for it, causing even more political strife.and dysfunction.
  • As for independents, it would depend on which solution was more beneficial or more in line with their ideals.

Any of the above three could lead to more Power Play conflicts as each faction tries to take advantage of public sentiment or manipulate it in order to increase their own power. Maybe there could have been different tools made available to players depending on which solution they preferred.

But, yeah, there seemed to be no urgency after the initial invasion. If the Thargoids manage to capture on avgerage 50 systems a week and there are 40000 systems (inhabited and uninhabited) in the bubble then that means it would take 15 years to completely occupy the bubble

Wow, that was a more of a rant than I intended.
Thinder
18 Mar 2024, 8:48pm
P O W E R L I N E
Thinder
P O W E R L I N E




I dont necessarily agree, especially in pve. If you have good range control and long range weapons you can have just as high time on target and its viable for pvp as well. The cutter just isnt as much fun to fly in my opinion.




At equal weaponry, less time on target due to lack of pointability is not working for you, that's a fact.

Best example is my Beam Laser [Fixed] fit; both 3C and 1E (just realized I need to finish to engineer one of the 1e), maximum range, fall off at the same max range.

I always start by taking down the target shield, so when the other weapons start to fire, the damage is immediately higher, I saw no evidence of a Cutter able to take down my shield this way ever, even with equivalent weapons, time on target due to pointability and superior shielding works for me.



First of all, if you fly correctly in pve, any ship can have the same time on target, the slightly higher pitch and yaw of a corvette wont make it better for that, it just might mean most people prefer it. I will admit the hardpoints and c8 distributor allow for more flexibility in builds. Plus if you fly the cutter in flight assist on its pretty annoying so i understand why people dont wanna use it.



Ignoring the laws of physics does nothing for you in combat, flying "correctly" with a less maneuverable ship neither and that's a fact.

Most people doesn't prefer the Corvette, most good PVE players would rather go for the FDL, as for flying without Flight Assist, it doesn't increase pitch, roll and yaw rates, it just allows you to keep your nose pointed to your target out of your velocity vector, which results in exactly what I was saying: Time on target equals faster kill. IF you are skilled enough to stop the rotations you might be able to gain on your time on target.

And there is catch to this flying; it works best at short range, from long to mid-range it is not very useful and before you can come anywhere close to a well fitted Corvette, chances are you'll have no shields, as a matter of fact I practice mid-range engagements vs ships like the Viper or the Imperial Courier in normal flight mode using all 4 axis, Throttle, FWD or BWD, booster and thruster and Fixed Lasers, I never really feel the need for turning Flight Assist Off.

The corvette has more than a maneuverability advantage over the Cutter, even with a Grade 7 instead of 8 Shield Generator it can reinforce this with higher grades Shield Cell Banks, as a result you got 114.0/s instead of 111.0/s Shield Reinforcement with their respective 2 top SCB.

The Corvette weaponry is also more powerful, 2 X Grade 4 plus one Grade 3 which is a 3C Beam Laser [Fixed] Long range XXXXX Thermal Vent on mine, the Secondary weapons (lover Grades) makes little difference, my two 1E Beam Laser [Fixed] Long range XXXXX Thermal Vent like the Grade 3 have a 6000m Fall Off start like the Grade 3.

And last but not least, the 8E Power Distributor on the Corvette is suited to weapons and shield needs, vs the 7E Power Distributor of the Cutter, meaning Power recharge time is inferior, recharge rate is superior for an A grade: 4.800 vs 4.000 for the Cutter.

Visibly, the Corvette is designed for combat with modules that are supported by power supply, more shield recharge capabilities and heavier weaponry.

ps, the reason why the Cutter handles like a pig is because it is 200 t heavier than the Corvette stock.

Last edit: 18 Mar 2024, 9:08pm
Glen van Ross
19 Mar 2024, 12:34am
HaraldsenWho would truly care if some scientist sacrificed a bunch of people if it saved mankind in the end? It’s mostly those who aren’t successful who will be judged. Everything else is a numbers game, some died so many can live.

Without creating an extended debate, I think it's worth pointing out that the vast bulk of the laws of war were born on the battlefield. They exist not because a bunch of ivory-tower REMFs decided soldiers needed kid gloves and unrealistic limitations, but because soldiers themselves realized that certain situations and activities actually hurt their warfighting capability—and it would be in everyone's best interests to have clarity, understanding the tradeoffs and consequences.

The debate over ends versus means is part of why the Nuremburg principles exist, and the implications of command responsibility get inculcated into the officer corps. The method by which you accomplish the mission matters, and done the "wrong" way it can land you in the dock, in the headlines, and as a negative illustration at war colleges around the world. There's always exceptions, of course, and today we could name several notable conflicts where the killing is indiscriminate and cruelty seems to be the point. But in most pluralistic democracies, that's not how we train military professionals to think about the task of killing others.

Kasumi Goto ... specifically referring to post-Proteus Salvation(or should we call him Nemesis now... nah, that's going to give too much credit to him, even compared to the other nickname). Might not be a 'good guy' in the textbook example - who ever is? - but I don't really believe the theory of turning on humanity. Unless it's not really the 'human' Salvation/Caleb Wycherley but just a crazed AI that inherited his memories and personality. Which would be so much worse.

I think that is the right take. Although it is fun to contemplate, FDev doesn't seem to lean into "typical" scifi tropes like murderous artificial intelligence, or even one-note kill-all-the-humans aliens. They always leave a little room for nuance, which makes it more fun than just "exterminate the obvious big bad" (though I guess the Titans are currently the exception, right now). Assuming some form of Wycherly comes back, he is probably not going to be a mindlessly hostile killbot.

That said, I don't know what the point would be in bringing him back as a non-enemy to the players. I think his story ends perfectly right where it is, in the wreckage of HIP 22460, after his wunderwaffe backfired spectacularly. Lessons learned from uncritically swallowing the snake oil peddled by charlatans.

Vasil VasilescuI think there was a missed opportunity not having more (I mean ANY) division about the proposed solution and how that would have affected the war.

Agreed, tons of missed opportunities for lore and Powerplay in the lead-up to the Titans' destruction. I like all of your suggestions/suppositions. It's a little bit inexplicable to me, since FDev loves to release story updates at a glacial pace. Lots of bickering back and forth over the hows and whys, and movement of the various factions toward or away from cooperation with like-minded opposites would have created tons of filler ... opportunities.
Vasil Vasilescu
19 Mar 2024, 2:12am
Glen van Ross Assuming some form of Wycherly comes back, he is probably not going to be a mindlessly hostile killbot.


Killbots are easily defeated using the Zap Brannigan tactic.
Kasumi Goto
19 Mar 2024, 3:52am
I don't think Constructs have a kill limit.

Not that they are guaranteed to show up. But if they do, humans probably won't leave much of a positive impression.
Meowers
19 Mar 2024, 5:26am
Vasil VasilescuKillbots are easily defeated using the Zap Brannigan tactic.
Can't say he was the first in the human history to use that. :p
Haraldsen
19 Mar 2024, 10:08am
Glen van Ross
The debate over ends versus means is part of why the Nuremburg principles exist, and the implications of command responsibility get inculcated into the officer corps. The method by which you accomplish the mission matters, and done the "wrong" way it can land you in the dock, in the headlines, and as a negative illustration at war colleges around the world. There's always exceptions, of course, and today we could name several notable conflicts where the killing is indiscriminate and cruelty seems to be the point. But in most pluralistic democracies, that's not how we train military professionals to think about the task of killing others.

I agree, it's just that the game world does not only consist of democracies. In an universe consisting of many inhabited systems, attitudes to such issues would probably be much more inconsistent than is already the case even on Earth today. Certain independent systems, Anarchists and even the Empire may have a different and more situational perspective on that. If you then consider that in sci-fi stories entire planets are sometimes bombed and wiped out, then the actions in the experiments as told about Salvation, for example, seem almost meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
I think one has also to consider the situation in which such acts are committed. If humanity as a whole were facing defeat, and considering that the Thargoids have flattened entire systems, the countermeasures and the necessary research would probably be even more desperate and less restricted - if it is not outright heading into the territory of last resort solutions. I am merely thinking about things from within the game universe.
Shg56
19 Mar 2024, 3:34pm
It's a Long Way to Tipperary
Jana Razeki
19 Mar 2024, 5:00pm
Spire sites when you sit at a distance of around 10-11 kilometers to them have some really creepy ambient music going. The kind that sends chills through your body and makes you think ‘Should I really be here?’.

I can’t say whether I recommend the experience.

(And sorry for confusing people about the accounts but it’s not always easy to keep track when you’re logged in with one on your phone and on the laptop/PC with the other.)
Thinder
19 Mar 2024, 9:26pm
Haraldsen
If humanity as a whole were facing defeat, and considering that the Thargoids have flattened entire systems, the countermeasures and the necessary research would probably be even more desperate and less restricted - if it is not outright heading into the territory of last resort solutions. I am merely thinking about things from within the game universe.


It's been done with victory as close term prospect, in the case of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, it was to limit the human cost of a prospective assault on Japan homeland...
Episparh
20 Mar 2024, 7:21am
Jana RazekiSpire sites when you sit at a distance of around 10-11 kilometers to them have some really creepy ambient music going. The kind that sends chills through your body and makes you think ‘Should I really be here?’.

I can’t say whether I recommend the experience.

(And sorry for confusing people about the accounts but it’s not always easy to keep track when you’re logged in with one on your phone and on the laptop/PC with the other.)

Try using one browser per character.
P O W E R L I N E
20 Mar 2024, 7:16pm
Thinder
P O W E R L I N E
Thinder



At equal weaponry, less time on target due to lack of pointability is not working for you, that's a fact.

Best example is my Beam Laser [Fixed] fit; both 3C and 1E (just realized I need to finish to engineer one of the 1e), maximum range, fall off at the same max range.

I always start by taking down the target shield, so when the other weapons start to fire, the damage is immediately higher, I saw no evidence of a Cutter able to take down my shield this way ever, even with equivalent weapons, time on target due to pointability and superior shielding works for me.




First of all, if you fly correctly in pve, any ship can have the same time on target, the slightly higher pitch and yaw of a corvette wont make it better for that, it just might mean most people prefer it. I will admit the hardpoints and c8 distributor allow for more flexibility in builds. Plus if you fly the cutter in flight assist on its pretty annoying so i understand why people dont wanna use it.




Ignoring the laws of physics does nothing for you in combat, flying "correctly" with a less maneuverable ship neither and that's a fact.

Most people doesn't prefer the Corvette, most good PVE players would rather go for the FDL, as for flying without Flight Assist, it doesn't increase pitch, roll and yaw rates, it just allows you to keep your nose pointed to your target out of your velocity vector, which results in exactly what I was saying: Time on target equals faster kill. IF you are skilled enough to stop the rotations you might be able to gain on your time on target.

And there is catch to this flying; it works best at short range, from long to mid-range it is not very useful and before you can come anywhere close to a well fitted Corvette, chances are you'll have no shields, as a matter of fact I practice mid-range engagements vs ships like the Viper or the Imperial Courier in normal flight mode using all 4 axis, Throttle, FWD or BWD, booster and thruster and Fixed Lasers, I never really feel the need for turning Flight Assist Off.

The corvette has more than a maneuverability advantage over the Cutter, even with a Grade 7 instead of 8 Shield Generator it can reinforce this with higher grades Shield Cell Banks, as a result you got 114.0/s instead of 111.0/s Shield Reinforcement with their respective 2 top SCB.

The Corvette weaponry is also more powerful, 2 X Grade 4 plus one Grade 3 which is a 3C Beam Laser [Fixed] Long range XXXXX Thermal Vent on mine, the Secondary weapons (lover Grades) makes little difference, my two 1E Beam Laser [Fixed] Long range XXXXX Thermal Vent like the Grade 3 have a 6000m Fall Off start like the Grade 3.

And last but not least, the 8E Power Distributor on the Corvette is suited to weapons and shield needs, vs the 7E Power Distributor of the Cutter, meaning Power recharge time is inferior, recharge rate is superior for an A grade: 4.800 vs 4.000 for the Cutter.

Visibly, the Corvette is designed for combat with modules that are supported by power supply, more shield recharge capabilities and heavier weaponry.

ps, the reason why the Cutter handles like a pig is because it is 200 t heavier than the Corvette stock.



Flight assist off much helps in combat, less so in pve to be fair but it still helps. keeping your nose pointed to your target out of your velocity vector as you said is an advantage and having precise control over your thrusters (especially in boost) makes the ship handle and feel a lot different. And its especially apparent on the cutter, not sure why you are trying to discount that argument. The additional 200t of the cutter are not the reason for its worse pitch and yaw, each ship has its own set maneuvering characteristics, it is affected by weight but you cant compare one 500t ship to another and chalk up the differences to the weight... even if the thrusters are the same, which they arent even in this case.

If you dont feel the need to turn flight assist off in pve thats fine but there is a reason people toggle it off for turning. You can just move the ship around better, youll have better time on target and will be harder to hit. (not relevant on large ships but on mediums and smalls)

Also, you choosing to compare the shield reinforcement by banks per second stat is hilarious. Total hp is much more important than additional hp in banks. And the cutter has more of that. Both total hp in banks (if you give both ships 4 banks) and raw hp in shields.

The corvette does have better weapons than the cutter, i do acknowledge that but the point i was trying to make is that for pve my cutter build seems to often work better than any corvette build ive tried. I simply cannot do the same rail setup on that corvette and that rail setup is the fastest way ive personally found to solo a cz or massacre missions which are considered engame pve i would say. (if you exclude ax)
And not just that, its also more convenient. Having 6km of your maximum damage is a huge upside to the usual beam/multi setup.
If you have a setup that can do kills faster, feel free to share it, im happy to try anything.

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