Elite: Game talk

Nemii Ziyal
02 May 2024, 4:50pm
Sampi Ogonek
Nemii Ziyal[...] My current strategy is to use heat sinks and keep boosting away until my FSD is back online and enter supercruise / hyperspace again. This strategy has worked thus far in that I have not lost my ship. Unfortunatley, the same does not always hold for the passengers, which on some runs do not all make it to the station occasionally.

[...]

My current build is an unengineered Krait with military grade composite, 6A Shield generator and 6A Thrusters. In the utility mounts I currently have 1 shield booster, 2 heat sinks and 1 shutdown field neutralizer.


Replace the shutdown field neutraliser with ECM, and use it when Scythes hyperdict you and try to extract passengers from your ship. ECM destroys all limpets, including Thargoid ones, within its pulse range.
(If you have never used an ECM, be aware that you have to hold down the button for a full range pulse. However, even a brief tap will destroy any limpets already attached to your hull.)

Nemii ZiyalHowever I am not sure whether or not I use the latter correctly and whether it is all that useful at all in my case, since my hardpoints get deployed when I use it which I then I need to retract quickly again to go into supercruise / hyperspace.


For evac missions a shutdown field neutraliser is unlikely to be useful. That said, if your hardpoints get deployed when you use it, there must be something wrong with your bindings.



Thanks for your reply. This is very helpful! I didn't know about the ECM so I will give that a try. Regarding the hardpoints, I have the shutdown field neutraliser (SFN) set to a separate fire group along with the D-scanner, with SFN attached to primary fire and D-scanner to secondary fire. Or does using primary and secondary fire in normal space always deploy hardpoints regardless of the module attached to it? Never really thought about that. Then I better use another keybind for it?
Glen van Ross
02 May 2024, 5:03pm
Nemii Ziyal... However, downside are of course the Thargoid interdictions. My current strategy is to use heat sinks and keep boosting away until my FSD is back online and enter supercruise / hyperspace again. This strategy has worked thus far in that I have not lost my ship. Unfortunatley, the same does not always hold for the passengers, which on some runs do not all make it to the station occasionally.

My main question are:
1) Do I have any chance of fighting off an attack with an unengineered ship? And if so which weapons best to use for that?
2) Any advice for my defensive strategy and gear?

You are not going to have a very good time fighting off an interdiction even in an engineered pax-hauler, because most of your decent-sized module slots are going to be pax cabins and not combat-relevant modules (HRP, MRP).

The only weapons my evac Python carries are Enhanced AX Multicannons, and I only use them in situations where I encounter a Glaive that has detected me and I can't run away from.

As far as strategy goes, you will generally want to immediately submit to the interdiction, then hit silent running and drop a heat sink the very nanosecond you drop from hyperdiction/interdiction into normal space. Turn FA off, turn your ship perpendicular to the Goid(s), boost as required to gain range, charge FSD when able, drop heatsink as required to keep thermal below detection range (20%). When beyond detection range (or when FSD is charged), disable silent running, re-enable FA, orient ship to destination, jump out.

The reason to turn 90 degrees is because Goid interceptors turn rates are terrible and they will take a long time to do it. Some pilots like to fly directly at the Goids and past them, to make the turning time longer (though this gives them free shots at you).

Being FA-off during evasion can be helpful; if you get hit with a shutdown pulse with FA on, your ship will magically grind to a halt in defiance of the laws of physics. If you get nailed with the pulse while FA-off, inertia continues to carry you forward even without functioning engines.

Scouts top out at 280m/s and you can easily outrun them even in a slow pax hauler. Interceptors generally top out at 450m/s, though Basilisks can get up to 530m/s, and that can be an issue for slower pax carriers, hence the silent running and heatsinks.

Scythes top speed is 500m/s and they will send hatchbreakers to steal your pax. Glaives you will not outrun at 700m/s, and they carry the Tharg-equivalent of Grom bombs to reboot your FSD.

My pax Python's top speed is about 491m/s and with proper technique you can get away from anything, except maybe one-in-twenty Glaives.
Meowers
02 May 2024, 5:11pm
Glen van RossThe reason to turn 90 degrees is because Goid interceptors turn rates are terrible and they will take a long time to do it. Some pilots like to fly directly at the Goids and past them, to make the turning time longer (though this gives them free shots at you).
A valid piece of tactics actually, if you're struggling with building up distance, or you don't have much time left, etc., especially against Basilisks. Zipping past it and dropping a heatsink so that it won't shoot at you, and will have to lose time and speed on turning. Said Basilisks are awful at turning when they go full speed.

You can use it even if you don't plan on fighting: the Interceptor is going to lose a shitload of time turning and accelerating. Just make sure not to go too close. Also, it triggers the lightning attack but the attack isn't immediate, if you're fast, you have enough time to get out of the range.
Nemii Ziyal
02 May 2024, 5:14pm
Nemii Ziyal
Sampi Ogonek
Nemii Ziyal[...] My current strategy is to use heat sinks and keep boosting away until my FSD is back online and enter supercruise / hyperspace again. This strategy has worked thus far in that I have not lost my ship. Unfortunatley, the same does not always hold for the passengers, which on some runs do not all make it to the station occasionally.

[...]

My current build is an unengineered Krait with military grade composite, 6A Shield generator and 6A Thrusters. In the utility mounts I currently have 1 shield booster, 2 heat sinks and 1 shutdown field neutralizer.



Replace the shutdown field neutraliser with ECM, and use it when Scythes hyperdict you and try to extract passengers from your ship. ECM destroys all limpets, including Thargoid ones, within its pulse range.
(If you have never used an ECM, be aware that you have to hold down the button for a full range pulse. However, even a brief tap will destroy any limpets already attached to your hull.)

Nemii ZiyalHowever I am not sure whether or not I use the latter correctly and whether it is all that useful at all in my case, since my hardpoints get deployed when I use it which I then I need to retract quickly again to go into supercruise / hyperspace.



For evac missions a shutdown field neutraliser is unlikely to be useful. That said, if your hardpoints get deployed when you use it, there must be something wrong with your bindings.




Thanks for your reply. This is very helpful! I didn't know about the ECM so I will give that a try. Regarding the hardpoints, I have the shutdown field neutraliser (SFN) set to a separate fire group along with the D-scanner, with SFN attached to primary fire and D-scanner to secondary fire. Or does using primary and secondary fire in normal space always deploy hardpoints regardless of the module attached to it? Never really thought about that. Then I better use another keybind for it?




Related to my question I just found the following post on Reddit from one year ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/z8ro12/psa_you_dont_need_engineering_to_contribute_with/

The poster claims that defending stations and outposts is well feasible even with an unengineered build. Recommended weapons are AX multicannons and missiles. And one slot for a flak canon to kill Thargon swarms. In combat zones around stations NPCs and human players are helping and a station is nearby to get repairs and get restocked quickly when necessary making unengineered build feasible. He also shares his Krait build. So I guess I will have a look into that one.

Last edit: 02 May 2024, 5:25pm
Meowers
02 May 2024, 5:37pm
I'd recommend you to spend some time on Guardian weaponry. Hunters are a rare sight and you can wait until they're dealt with on the station, or make short take-offs when they get close to give them some hatred and then go back for repairs. And, Interceptors... Guardian stuff is the weaponry to deal with them. FDev also introduced a shielding upgrade recently but it would cost you some damage output and it's grindy.

Honestly, I'm absolutely certain that trying to fight Interceptors with those non-Guardian clown pop guns is even more grindy than getting Guardian stuff unlocked.
Nemii Ziyal
02 May 2024, 6:14pm
MeowersI'd recommend you to spend some time on Guardian weaponry. Hunters are a rare sight and you can wait until they're dealt with on the station, or make short take-offs when they get close to give them some hatred and then go back for repairs. And, Interceptors... Guardian stuff is the weaponry to deal with them. FDev also introduced a shielding upgrade recently but it would cost you some damage output and it's grindy.

Honestly, I'm absolutely certain that trying to fight Interceptors with those non-Guardian clown pop guns is even more grindy than getting Guardian stuff unlocked.



Thanks! I will see if I can unlock the Guardian weapons first then.
Meowers
02 May 2024, 6:27pm
Nemii ZiyalThanks! I will see if I can unlock the Guardian weapons first then.
Sure! Hope you like them. Gauss Cannons and Modified Shard Cannons are considered the best at the moment but others can be fun too. Modshards, if I remember correctly, need a different unlocking procedure (got mine so long ago I can't actually remember how I did that lol) but everything's on Google and has been there for years. Feel free to DM if you have any questions or something.

(and frankly I doubt it's even possible to do any significant harm to Medusas or Hydras with AXMCs, so you'll have to switch anyway at some point in your progress, unless FDev introduces something else that may be used against the larger variants successfully)

Last edit: 02 May 2024, 6:33pm
Sampi Ogonek
02 May 2024, 7:41pm
Nemii ZiyalRegarding the hardpoints, I have the shutdown field neutraliser (SFN) set to a separate fire group along with the D-scanner, with SFN attached to primary fire and D-scanner to secondary fire. Or does using primary and secondary fire in normal space always deploy hardpoints regardless of the module attached to it?

Ah, so you are using a fire group to use the SFN (like in the bad old times before we had a dedicated binding for the SFN available). I guess you have the option “Firing deploys hardpoints” (or something like that, don’t remember the exact name) enabled. Then yes, using a fire button will deploy hardpoints regardless of the active fire group, I think.

The preferred way to use the SFN nowadays is to set up the aforementioned dedicated binding and use it. It will work with a Thargoid Pulse Neutraliser, too.
Sampi Ogonek
02 May 2024, 8:23pm
Nemii ZiyalRelated to my question I just found the following post on Reddit from one year ago:

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/z8ro12/psa_you_dont_need_engineering_to_contribute_with/

The poster claims that defending stations and outposts is well feasible even with an unengineered build. Recommended weapons are AX multicannons and missiles. And one slot for a flak canon to kill Thargon swarms. In combat zones around stations NPCs and human players are helping and a station is nearby to get repairs and get restocked quickly when necessary making unengineered build feasible. He also shares his Krait build. So I guess I will have a look into that one.

It may be feasible, but I would not say it is recommended, especially for someone new to AX combat. AX multicannons have low armour piercing while AX missiles have zero breach damage and are slow (and their armour piercing isn’t that great, either). Taking down anything tougher than a Basilisk with just (E)AXMCs and (E)AXMRs is going to be difficult without coordinated action of multiple CMDRs (or just help from one or more better armed CMDRs).

BTW, flak cannons are useless when defending planetary ports (because Interceptors cannot deploy swarms when near a surface). They do have a use at space ports, but I do not consider them essential there, either.
Sampi Ogonek
02 May 2024, 8:39pm
MeowersModshards, if I remember correctly, need a different unlocking procedure

Modified Guardian weapons are purchasable items (i.e. you need to pay in the materials for each item), while regular Guardian weapons are unlockable (i.e. you pay in the materials once, then you can purchase them for credits). Also, modified Guardian weapons are available only at some tech brokers (IIRC rescue megaships are among those). [Edit: I recalled wrong, it’s the Azimuth modified EAXMCs that are available at rescue megaships. Modified Guardian weapons are available only at Prospect Deep, as Kasumi Goto says below, and thus require a permit from Azimuth Biotech.]

Last edit: 02 May 2024, 9:02pm
Kasumi Goto
02 May 2024, 8:58pm
Modified Guardian weaponry is currently only available at Prospect Deep in Mbooni, is how it's been for a while. If I remember correctly, the Bright Sentinel also used to offer them, but it's now a smoldering, corroding wreck in HIP 22460, with Salvation's (physical) body on it.
Shg56
02 May 2024, 11:20pm
Meowers(and frankly I doubt it's even possible to do any significant harm to Medusas or Hydras with AXMCs, so you'll have to switch anyway at some point in your progress, unless FDev introduces something else that may be used against the larger variants successfully)[/i]

Don't listen to the BS above. AXMC is the most universal weapons against goids from scout to medusa inclusively. I earned 4 star goids' badge with these weapons. MKII hull tank, AXMC 3X3C+1x2E plus long range Grade 5-2D Beam with vent. I hope that new PMKII with 6 hard points and 6 utility slots will allow to shred hydras, as well.
Kasumi Goto
02 May 2024, 11:39pm
Considering the stark difference between the capability of a Guardian shard cannon and an anti-xeno multicannon... there is a grain of truth to that statement you qualify as 'BS'. "Shredding" is certainly the wrong word with the human weaponry, even if it is adequate (and not too bad against Cyclops). I've used both so I know the two types well enough, and fighting a Medusa with AX multis is kind of just tedious. 2x3(large) and 2x2(medium) on a Krait if instead you wanted to use a C3 vent beam(my brain requires the symmetry) is incapable of getting through the Medusa's passive HP regen unless you have AX NPC backup. And requires most of the exertion time to take a heart out.
Shg56
02 May 2024, 11:55pm
You are either ignorant or misleading new cmdrs on purpose.
Kasumi Goto
03 May 2024, 12:41am
More like you're overselling the capabilities of basic AX weaponry. Unless you're referring to the Azimuth pre-engineered version, which is not something a "newbie" will be looking to pick up to get into AX combat.

I used the enhanced gimballed multis. Great as a Scout swatter, good against Cyclops, decent against Glaives and can, with persistence, handle a Basilisk. But a Medusa's pushing it, and they are most definitely not a replacement for Guardian weapons. I have no doubt the human weaponry could handle a Hydra with other players around(since the missiles are better at exerts but not so much taking hearts out themselves), but when it comes to one on one fights, most people are not going to choose them over Guardian weaponry.

If you require numbers - Medusa has 175 armor with a passive regen of 10 HP/second. Going with your setup, that is 30.24 sustained DPS - the figure that matters - from 3 large AX multicannons, so 90.72, plus 20.72 from the C2. Take the C3 figure and account for armor, you're already only dealing 18.85% damage due to a pen of 33, and lose another ~35% thanks to part of the AX multicannon damage being kinetic and not "anti-xeno". Which results in a measly 12% actual damage dealt, for a sustained DPS of 3.7 per multicannon. 11.1 for all three.

Now do the same for the C2. 17 pen so it will only be doing 9.7% damage, for 1.97(1.966) sustained DPS. And multiply by 0,666667(the AX damage proportion stated by EDSY) - 1.31.

So, now you have a grand total of 12.41 sustained DPS, versus a passive regeneration rate of 10. So, effectively, you are dealing 2.41 damage per second, IF you remain within the ideal damage range(2km) for the multicannons. And the first heart of a Medusa requires 500 HP of damage dealt in order to exert its first heart. So, more maths :

500/2.41 = 207.46 seconds

Meaning, you will be firing at it for over three minutes with perfect time on target, always within the ideal damage range, no weapon malfunctions from any eventual damage taken, or being forced to evade Thargon missiles, just to get the Medusa's first heart exerted. And you seriously expect this is the kind of thing a player new to AX combat, let alone one new to the game, will perform?

The figure looks slightly more favorable for the Azimuth modified multicannons which, under that same setup, reduce exertion time to just under 100 seconds(~15 DPS). But a new player will not have access to those or necessarily even know they exist.

Meanwhile, let's look at a modified C2 shard cannon build, with four of them.

54.89 sustained DPS, 90.9 pen - 51.94% damage = 28.51 DPS, 50% of that AX = 14.255 sustained DPS against a Medusa from a single shard cannon

Multiply by four to acknowledge you have four of them...

4x 14.255 = 57.02 DPS within the ideal damage range(1.5km)

500/57.02 = 8.77 seconds(8.76885303 rounded to two decimals)

So assuming you remain within the falloff range of the shard cannons, you can get an exert on a Medusa more than ten times faster than the (arguably) best anti-xeno multicannon available. And you basically need four large AXMCs* to barely match the passive regeneration rate of a Hydra(12.8 HP/sec).

Have I made my point** yet?

*All figures for the multicannons use gimballed variation. As I am under the impression they are the subject here.

**Both about how Guardian weapons are just straight up better, and why a new player, not someone already experienced, will be extremely unlikely to be capable of using the AX multicannons well enough to really have a good chance of taking on a Medusa with them.

***I should mention, yes, you won’t exert a Medusa that quickly unless you fire all four shards at the same time. Which you’re not going to(unless you want to cook your ship), but the point remains the same nonetheless.

Last edit: 03 May 2024, 12:50am

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